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Brad, in his question below, asks what bounce is on his wedges. Let’s see if we can shed some light and help Brad and all of us on the importance of Bounce.
Brad Kile says:
I have a number of wedges and I notice that the base of each seems to have a different width. I think this is called the bounce. What are the advantages and disadvantages of having a wedge with a thick bounce vs a thin bounce width?
The Surge says:
Bounce is defined by club fitters and club manufacturers as, “The measurement in degrees from the front leading edge of a club’s sole to the point that the back of the sole rests on the ground. The more the front leading edge is off the ground, the more bounce the club has. Conversely, the less the front leading edge is to the ground, the less bounce the club has.”
More bounce reduces the leading edge of the club face DIGGING into the ground. This means that the back edge “bounces” (hence the term bounce) or skids the club off the ground. This is extremely important on sand wedges when hitting an explosive shot out of a bunker. The back edge of the flange causes the club to skip, slip, glide or slide thru the sand. This displaces or throws the sand and ball out of the bunker with the sand. Not enough bounce and the club goes too deep, takes too much sand.
Let’s look at Wikipedia says about bounce and the history of bounce on a golf club as invented by Gene Sarazen in the early 1930s.
Wikipedia
A sand wedge, or sand iron, is a type of golf club primarily designed for use out of sand bunkers. It has the widest sole of any wedge, which provides the greatest amount of bounce, allowing the club head to glide through sand and avoid digging in.
History
Gene Sarazen began to win tournaments in 1935 with a new club he had invented that was specialized for sand play. He is hailed as the inventor of the sand wedge. However, history goes about 3 years further back than that. Spoon clubs offered varying degrees of loft and allowed players to scoop their ball out of sand traps and deep rough. As manufacturers became more and more innovative with club design, new types of wedges appeared. Some had concave faces, others featured deeply grooved faces, but not all of these designs conformed to USGA and R&A regulations, and many were banned. With the concave-faced wedge having been outlawed in 1931, Sarazen designed his sand wedge with a straight face. Another modification that he made was to add extra lead to the front edge of the club face, allowing it to cut through the sand more smoothly. After he won the 1932 British and U.S. Opens with the help of his new club, its popularity quickly grew.
Design
The modern sand wedge is often the heaviest iron in a player’s bag, with most weighing nearly 40 ounces (1.1 kg). Traditionally it also had the highest loft at 54 to 58 degrees (55–56 being most common), although that distinction now goes to the lob wedge, which often has a loft of 60 degrees or more. It usually has one of the shortest shafts, between 33 inches (84 cm) and 36 inches (91 cm), though in some sets the sand wedge has a longer shaft than the pitching wedge.
Bounce
The main distinguishing difference of the club from most others, however, is a feature called bounce. On most other irons, the sole of the club is perpendicular to the shaft, meaning it is roughly parallel to the ground when the club is at rest, allowing the leading edge to get between the ball and the ground more easily. A sand wedge however is designed with the sole of the club at an angle to the ground in the same position, lifting the leading edge of the club off the ground.
This accomplishes three things. First, this design generally requires more material, which increases the weight of the club head for more momentum and places that weight low and forward in the club head for higher launches.
Second, the angled sole lifts the leading edge off the ground at the bottom of the swing, preventing the club from digging in to softer lies such as muddy ground, thick grass and of course sand, instead tending to skim over the surface.
I saw a list framed on the wall in one of the fitting Tour vans with a title that was something like “Top 25 inventions or discoveries of the past 50 or so years that have changed golf the most for the better.” Number 1 on the list was Gene Sarazen inventing the sand wedge, which is, in effect, inventing BOUNCE.
More loft means the club has or needs less bounce. This is why lob wedges, from 58 degrees and higher, have much less bounce than sand wedges of 54 to 56 degrees. To lob or flop a wedge shot high and land like a brick on a green, the wedge has a smaller flange and bounce, so the club’s leading edge is closer to the ground and can slice under the ball low to the ground and thus pop the ball up quickly and high.
A bunker shot is the only shot the club face does not hit the ball. When sand needs to be removed to pop a ball out, more bounce is needed to help the wedge cut through and keep sliding through the sand. The bounce keeps the club sliding through, throwing the sand and the ball out of the bunker.
Removing sand to hit a bunker shot means the sand wedge must have more bounce on its flange. The texture of the sand can also require more or less bounce for more reliability of successfully executing the explosion sand shot. The firmer or courser the sand, or hard packed sand, to hard pan, to no sand bunkers, less bounce is needed. Fluffy light or fine sand, as is found in Florida, is called “sugar sand.” It has the texture of Sweet and Low amd needs a lot more bounce to skid through and not dig.
These principle of the right amount of bounce for the sand or hard pan also apply to the type of grass conditions you play on. Higher cut and better watered grass fairways and rough need more bounce. Closer mown and drier and harder fairways and fringes need less bounce. Tour players have numerous wedges with different degrees of bounce for each loft they play. They change wedges from course to course, based on the turf and sand conditions. They also change them if playing conditions change during a tournament, like a lot of rain making fairways and fringes soggy and susceptible to digging where they would use more bounce. I own and use 3 exact duplicate 56 degree sand wedges, each with different degrees of bounce. I change them out based on the conditions. One has 6 degrees of bounce, another has 9 degrees and the most bounce one has 14 degrees.
For most amateurs who can’t just bop into the club Tour van and have a new set of wedges made with the correct bounce needed for this week’s sand and turf conditions or buy multiple different wedges with different degrees of bounce, there is a solution. Get a sand and lob wedge with a median degree of bounce that will overall work well for all sand and turf conditions. Checking with one of my “Master Club Fitters,” he gave me the following suggestions for what are the median degrees of bounce for wedges.
For a sand wedge, the median degree is from around 9 to 12 degrees. For a lob wedge, 3 or 4 degrees is the median. I will add that these are just ranges and not only may but WILL vary from player to player for the conditions and circumstances. The best advice I can give is to check with your PGA professional or club fitter for their expert advice in making your selection.
Bounce is important. We all need to know about it and address it, especially in our wedges.
The Surge!
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Tell me what you're thinking... and what part of the golf swing, or this great game... you'd like to know more about. If you want your pic to show with your comment, go get a 
I was looking at the video’s of You and DJ. I appears to me that you position the ball closer to the right foot when you say it is in the center. Short irons look much further back that I had imagine the PPGS.
Don,
I have not purchased any items from you, and I find you to be very generous
with you knowledge and golf information. This article about wedges is
one of the best I have ever read. Times are a little tough for some of us in
the world of golfers and I am very appreciative of your generosity.
Thank you for all you do for the average golfer on a limited budget!
Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas!
Keep up the good work!
George
Hi Don,
I enjoy reading your articles and find them very imformative. I have a question about the latest one on “bounce.” Why do some companies put bounce into clubs other than the wedges? For example: Ping (according to their catalog) produces their S57 iron set with 10* of bounce in the pitching wedge, and 9* of bounce in the 9 iron. Even the 7 and 8 irons have 5 and 7 degrees of bounce repectively. I am interested in your take on this. Thanks.
Pete
Hi Don,
I have had some lessons (unfortunately the teaching pro was not telling me what you are), and they include video. I have one issue that has been ingrained in my swing for decades – the chicken wing. I subconciously draw in my arms (both bent creating a bow effect) in the downswing. Even if other facets of my swing are working well, I may top or blade the ball. Since I just purchased your videos, the problem may be solved as a byproduct of your instruction. If not, do you have any specific drill or drills that could help? By the way, thanks for the videos. I can’t wait to put your swing changes into practice.
Must be another bad web site. The videos will not come up.
Surge,
I’ve adopted as much of the PPGS as physically possible and have found much improvement in the direction of shots and repeatability of my swing. After reviewing the recent videos of you and DJ in real and slow-mo I ask you which club/swing of either series best illustrates the instruction in the manual on page 62 that states; “motion must begin in the hips and shoulders”. Please review each and tell me which shot best illustrates this concept.
I have found that I cannot institute a proper full shot without starting with the hip/shoulder turn that moves the club face approximately 35-45 inches away from the ball before the “lifting” takes place. And I thank you immensely for this advice as I feel the hips tend to become frozen in place if simply left to follow the lead of the shoulders and abdomen. However, the videos seem to present evidence of many swings being instituted with an arm/shoulder movement. Am I putting too much emphasis on the starting move or am I missing something. I play golf!
Lou
In watching the video and in particular the angle of the club in relation to the left forearm. In reading the PPGS foundation manual and in various blogs you have indicated the angle of the wrists do not change. However, the video indicates that when your left forearm is in the 9 oclock position on the take-away, the club shaft is pointing straight up to 12 oclock. Without “cocking” your wrist I fail to see how you can accomplish this position. When your manual says the wrist position at address does not change throughout the swing, I cannot understand how this is possible. Perhaps, I am just not understanding wrist position in your dialog. I would appreciate clarification of this point. Thanks
I started playing golf at the start of last June and my very first 18 holes ended with what I thought was a disappointing 118 and had to deal with a sore back for the next couple of days after. Thanks to the encouragements of my red-neck buddies, some of whom have been playing for years now, I found a better set of clubs that fit me and most importantly I ran across your website among others while trying to teach myself something similar to a golf swing.
I found your website and received the 10 videos starting 2 weeks later on June 16th. I have always been a quick study at things that interest me, so I took what you advised on your videos outside in the front yard and PRACTICED. And I mean practiced. Stance, grip, alignment, swing, and follow through to T finish. Over the last 6 months or so my red-neck buddies have watch me go from the rookie of the foursome with the worst score to the not-so rookie who now, depending on which course we play, plays from mid 90’s to high 80’s and finish mostly 1st or 2nd and the more rounds we play the better my back feels while my buddies backs begin to affect their game. It’s almost like I have this secret weapon that I use when I play these guys.
I really was not for sure how close my swing was to the PPGS until you sent out those videos yesterday. Thank you very much for doing that for I now know that I’m on the right track.
I have only one question, I keep both knees quite(don’t move at all) but I noticed that you and DJ both move, or flex some what your forward knee NOT to the inside BUT out over your foot during your back swing, is this part of the PPGS?
Don,
I purchased your videos and from the balls I’ve hit on the range I am very excited about using your swing on the golf course. Unfortunately winter is setting in and I will have to wait for Spring. I have a question for you. Before I tailored my swing after the one plane swing and my clubs were fitted as 2 degrees flat. Will this fitting work for your swing? Also I’ve noticed that your swing generates a lot more swing speed with no effort.
Hi Don,
I review the video and was confused when I notice that in the swing both you and Dj would lift the toes of the forward foot and ended up with the wight on the outside of your forward foot. I have always thought the weight should stay in the ball and also on the inside of your forward foot. I would greatly appreciate your comments.
It would take some kind of investigative science to convince me that this idea is not “another” gimmick with manufacturers encouraging us to part with our cash; I mean to say has anyone found improvements to their teeth by buying the toothpaste with the stripes; or the time taken to clean the kitchen floor, to perfection, by buying F***h; or improvements to our manhood by buying a pump or a pill…….etc. ?
Hi Don!
I wish to thank you very much for all your articles! I enjoy reading them (as well as comments) every day. I received yesterday an e-mail where you are offering me a fantastic video from you and your son DJ swinging all the clubs….but ooops this page is not available!!!! — I hope I won´t miss the opportunity!!!!!
P.S.—I purchased your book months ago and now that I purchased your videos, I can say that your PPGS is doing magic!!!! Now I really DO UNDERSTAND many points that I was´nt able to visualize….
Have a nice weekend, and play well,
Elisabeth
to FRANK:
The wrists do NOTcock. What happens is that during the backswing, the FOREARMS ROLL (top forearm over lower). This produces the angle of the club to the arms that you are observing — but the wrist remains FLAT>
to Roger:
I assume you are referring to :”bounce” as a gimmick? How do you hit from a greenside bunker without bounce ?
Amos
Just looked at the videos for the first time. I am sure I will repeat it many times this winter as I sit here watching our first snow fall. Two things struck me immediately: 1) my knees are much wider that yours after turning my feet out. Should the knees stay inside the feet, over them, or outside the feet, and 2) while watching DJ hit his wedge down to the 5 iron I noticed a slight over the top move but not as he worked down into the longer clubs. Is this just normal, am I seeing things, or does his height have something to do with it?
Thanks…love the dailies.
Chuck
iHAVE NOTICED THAT THE AMOUNT OF BOUNCE DOES NOT MATTER IVE HIT CHIP SHOTS WITH MY CALLAWAY 60 DEG WEDGE WITH 10 DEG OF BOUNCE OUT OF THE SAND OR OF THE GRASS AND HAD THE SAME RESULTS MY SAND WEDGE HAS THE MOST BOUNCE OF ANY AT 14 DEGS.. THE OTHER THING IS .i STUDYIED PHIL MICKELSONS DVD HE SAYS AS FAR AS BOUNCE IT DOESN’T MATTER I USE THE SAME WEDGES CALLAWAY C GRIND WITH M.D GROVES. I CAN HIT THE GREEN FROM 35 FEET AWAY I HAVE TO SAY HE IS RIGHT ABOUT THE HINDGE AND HOLD IT WORKS IT POPS THE BALL UP AND SOFTLY ON TO THE GREEN SO I GUESS IT WORKS FOR ME.THE OTHER THING IS THE LOFT OF THE CLUB SOME OF THE PRO’S ARE PLAYING A 64 DEG WEDGE OR A 54 DEG SAND WEDGE.IVE SEEN A 53 DEG APROACH WEDGE DIFFERENT WEDGES FOR DIFFERENT CONDITIONS..
FOR RAYMOND GRAHAM
Yesterday you rasied the question of where to place the ball in your stance. Hogan, Nicklaus, et al placed the ball the same place in their stance for every normal shot; i.e. lined up with the left heel or 1 to 2 inches behind the heel. You questioned this inasmuch as the clubs are all different lengths. You are overlooking the fact that the clubs are all a different length but as you use a longer club the ball is placed farther away but still in the same alignment re the left heel.
Inasmuch as the clubs are in fact different lengths and the ball is moved farther away the longer the club it does indeed work to play the ball the same distance right of the left heel for all normal shots. I have always used this approach and it seems to work quite well for me. However, I was taught this system as a child so have really tried no other system. I do know, however, that many play the ball farther to the right the shorter the club and it seems to work also. Since I am a pragmatist my philosophy is to find what works best for YOU and use it.
Good golfing!
To Woody,
YOu mention that you keep both knees quiet in the backswing (don’t move at all) but you noticed that DJ and I both move or flex the forward Knee not to the inside but out over the forward foot.
The forward knee is allowed to move inward a little to a max of 1 to 2 inches. If it looks like it moves forward over the foot instead of inward that is not correct. The knee should move a little inward. I am sure both DJ and I move slightly inward. I also know that sometimes I keep my knees so still as you imply you are doing that not moving may appear to be moving outward.
On page 99 of the Foundation Swing Manual it says #5. Keep left foot planted.Let weight roll to inside of left foot. #6. keep knees flewed and wide. #7. Resist inward movement of left knee as much as possible. Feel torque ij hamstring,
The key is “resist” the forward knee moving inward. Moving inward a little (not more than an inch or two) is preferred as it allows the 70 degree limited turn and builds up the torque and load over and onto the back leg in the backswing.
The Surge!
To Ney,
Regarding your comment about weight shift or transfer to the forward foot. You say you always thought the weight should stay on the ball and the inside of the foot. This is the basic belief for those who rotate and turn snapping the forward knee and leg straight keeping the weight basically flat on the foot.
The PPGS weight shift first starts with a lateral forward shift and then turns over and onto a flexed forward knee and with the forward foot rolling over to the outside edge at the ankle. On page 105 of the foundation Swing manual in the face on view fot the followthrough to 12 o’clock it says for #5. Left (forward Knee) still flexed. #6. left foot rolls over. Weight is on outside edge.
On page 106 for the T – Finish face on it says #4. all weight is on outside edge of the left (forward) foot at the ankle. Down the line view # 6 states: absolutely no weight on your right (back) foot. It’s all on the outside edge of your left (forward) foot at the ankle. You should be in perfect balance and able to tap your right (back) foot.
I can sum this up by saying that a forward leg snapping the knee straight causes the weight transfer onto a flat foot. Shifting the weight then turning and keeping the left or forward knee FLEXED is consistent with the weight rolling over onto the outside edge of the foot at the ankle. Straight knee and leg = flat foot and flexed knee = rolled over to outside edge of forward foot. It is all about and due to the design of the legs, knee and foot as they work based on the knee flexed/ oot rolled over or knee straight/foot flat.
The Surge!
Seems as though the width of your stance stayed the same throughout the set. Shouldn’t the stance get wider with the increase in length of the club?
I purchased your DVD and have not see it, how long do I wait?
Hi Don. I actually found you when I searched medical sources for ankle Fusion. There was your ad for 10 tips. I finally was able to take you up on your special, even though I will be out of service for about 3 months. Look out march and I hope the doc turns me loose. It is driving me wild, not to be out on the course. If you have some good tips for rigid left ankles that I may have missed, please help me find your suggestions. I love what I have been able to see and read thus far. Many thanks. Bud
Roger, Roger, Roger,
More scientific evidence? You can hit any club you wish from the sand that you’d like! I’ve even hit fairway wood, hybrids, and long irons (when I still played them), but, if you’re trying to hit a shot up and out fo the sand, and have it stop, from a relatively close bunker such as a green side bunker, the bounce of the club is really what pushes the sand and that is what moves the ball. This is exactly why Sarazen solder mass amounts of metal on the bottom of his club. It made it much easier to get the ball out of the sand with more control. Now, as we’ve seen from a post above, some players are so good that they can work majic with wedges regardless of bounce. Mr. Mickleson perhaps one of the best wedge players around apparently says that bounce doesn’t matter. I’m quite shocked but, to each his own. Phil certainly does spend a lot of time practicing. However, even most tour players have wedges with varying degrees of loft and bounce to match the playing conditions that they are faced with. Wedges aren’t the only clubs with bounce. Most irons in a set have some degree of bounce. The purpose is to keep the club moving rather than just digging and getting “stuck”.
Amos: The answer to your question to Roger. VERY CAREFULLY! Fasten your seat belt!
I saw the videos that you sent out. The PPGS is definitely a unique swing.
What other PGA or LPGA touring pros are using your swing besides DJ? http://www.aboutjuniorgolf.com
Hey Surge:
Great article on bounce; but I must say after viewing the videos of you and DJ going through the bags that those swings strongly resemble my new swing. My sand wedge will probably languish from lack of use considering my game is going to be played on the short stuff. Thank you for the surgical intervention and sharing your wisdom. My home gym area is equipped with lots of mirrors and a high enough ceiling for full swings. I can see my new swing and can definitely feel the flow of accelerating power through the impact zone.
Gord
Hi Don,,I would be more than happy to watch the new videos,Unfortunately I can not open the page.What can I do ?? Thank you Wolf
to J. Griffin :
So now we are porcupines? ie (how do porcupines make love? VERY CAREFULLY!)
LOL!!
Amos
For those who cannot open the swing videos… Try entering the address as www. … (ie. leave out the http;// I think they may have put a semi colon vs a colon in there and that’s screwing it up)
Or just cut and paste the videos into your web browser. Atl least for Google.
Don, looking at the videos again it still appears to me you don’t put the ball back in your stance from the sand wedge to the 5 iron. After that it looks like it is moving to the middle of your stance. No offense to DJ, but I really think your swing looks better. You generate a lot of speed.
Ronnie,
The illusion that the ball is back in the stance is due to the degree that the front foot is flared. To see just what I mean. Place a golf ball on the floor and then take a stance with the left foot pointed straight forward and even with the ball. Then slowly start turning the left foot to the left and you’ll notice that the ball changes position relative to the foot but not to the body. Also, some of the illusion is magnified by the camera angle being just slightly behind and to the right of Don. I have seen Don hit balls personally and he does pratice exactly what he teaches.
The videos show that both you and DJ have very quick hands. The average golfer will never get back to square at your swing speeds. I’d like to know what both swing speeds average if you would reveal? The problem that a shortened backswing brings is the transition to the downswing. In both the Surge and DJ’s you can notice a slight “wave” or “flip” at the top. Both are vaguely similar to Sergio Garcia at the top, although Sergio takes the club much further back. If you look at Tiger’s swing he stay’s perfectly on-plane even during transition as does Phil, Anthony Kim and others. The difficulty for the amateur in the transition is keeping the club on-plane and square. My point here is this; the better golfer can make an accommodation or correction before impact to bring the club back to square and on-plane but the lesser golfer will usually pull across the plane with an open face. In reading the many posts I continue to observe that common problem, i.e. hitting thin shots with the ball going right. In the old days many greats like Snead would have a slight pause at the top but your videos show quite the opposite. Most high handicappers cannot master the quick transition with a shortened backswing and should program in a micro second of pause or they will inevitably be prone to hitting from the top in the effort to “catch up” with the body. Many of your readers also complain of lost distance with your program as well. This is probably true since a shortened backswing will generally not generate as much clubhead speed. I have gone to an abbreviated backswing myself and can attest to losing distance but my accuracy has greatly improved. I simply take more club and swing easier. It appears to me that the Surge is swinging in excess of 100 MPH which is much faster than 99% of guys his age and obviously DJ must be above 115 MPH to be competitive on tour.
Don
I still am not able to access the videos.
Good ol’ Gene perfected the san wedge in my hometown: New Port Richey, Fla.
love the articles and my new swing but
i have not recieved my cd’s yet
is there a number i should call, to check on them
thanks
this is a very informative site
i’ve already mentioned it to several friends
(that i know i can beat)lol
thanks
dave
Don,
In your article on “Bounce” you advocate using a Sand wedge with 9 to 12 degrees of bounce and a Lob wedge with 3 to 4 degrees. Since I am in the market for a new sand and lob wedge I have been looking for wedges that match those specs. Sand wedge, no problem but for the life of me I cannot find a Lob wedge with 3 to 4 degrees of bounce. Most are in the 10 to 13 degree range. Is there a typo in the article?
what do you think of the Tally mind set devise?