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Many golfers, especially new golfers, are plagued with the problem of hitting the top to the ball and dribbling it along the ground. In the old days of balata golf balls, these top shots would cut a deep gash in the cover of the ball rendering it unplayable. The advent of surlyn and other exotic blended covers that don’t cut has kept the destruction of balls to a minimum. But the key issue of curing the top shots lingers. Jim discusses his topping issue and injects a possible solution. Then Michael wrote in a good suggestion to consider. Let’s take a look at the major causes of topping and some good cures.
Jim Benjamin says:
I have had the same problem with my irons. Everything from hitting the ball thin to topping the ball. I have never hit down on the ball. If I try, I come across the ball, over the top, so I don’t even try. Maybe I need to play the ball back farther in my stance to hit it before the club comes up. Right now I’m at the point where I’m not sure what to do and my game is suffering. I shot 110 Saturday, not a 91 like I would expect. I’m in Arizona if you’re wondering. We play year round.
Michael Clay says:
To Jim Benjamin. Forgive me if this seems too trite. I’ve played with numerous people, including my wife, who were consistently topping the ball. When I ask them what their eyes are focused on during the golf swing they say the ball, of course. I ask them specifically where on the ball they focus, and they usually touch the TOP of the ball with their club. I suggest that they focus on THE BACK of the ball and try to imagine driving a nail into the back of the ball with the club head. Usually the topping problem goes away after a few swings.
The Surge says:
Topping the ball and thinning are somewhat similar yet different. Topping is hitting the very top of the ball, which drives it straight down into the ground. Then there is some roll out. Depending on the face angle at impact or path, a top can go straight to dead left or right.
Hitting a thin shot is catching the ball somewhere above the equator to the top. The closer to the equator the higher the ball is off the ground and it flies farther from knee to shoulder high, like a bullet. Hitting the ball closer to the top drives the ball more straight down into the ground, resembling the basic top shot. Setup as well swing problems can be the cause of these two undesirable shots.
Michael suggests that vision plays an important role in good club to ball contact. He is 100% correct. Where you look is where you go when you walk or drive. Where you look is where you deliver a hammer head or club head to the nail or ball. To hit the ball solidly Michael describes the concept of driving a nail into the back of the ball, which is a good image. In reality, since we want the ball to get airborne, the club face must actually contact the ball a little below the equator. The key is to focus on the ball where you want to hit it. If you want to hit it higher you need to lower your contact, so look a little more below the equator. Hitting the equator for a tee shot will produce a low, penetrating shot to cut the wind. Contact above the equator is 100 percent TOPPING it.
Alignment being 90 to 95 percent the cause of all swing problems is the first setup point that must be checked. Aiming too far right for a right hander, left for a leftie, causes the upper torso to have to pull up and out of the way for the arms and club to get to the ball. Torso raises (notice I did not say, “picked your head up” — one of the worse excuses in golf) and arms, hands and club also come up and you top the ball. This is also where we see the so called “Chicken Wing,” the forward elbow breakdown that a few have commented on and asked for help in curing it.
Another big setup problem is exactly what Jim suggested in adjusting his ball position farther back. This works only if the ball was too far forward. If the ball is too much forward, impact is too late, as the club is too high in the upswing catching the top of the ball. Playing the ball too far back can also be the problem, causing the torso to have to rise up and even hang or fall back toward the back foot. Either way, proper ball position is critical to correct alignment and good contact.
PPGS ball position parameters are we play the ball in the center of the stance for the wedges through 7 iron. As the clubs get longer, the ball gradually moves forward to behind the heel of the front foot for long irons and hybrids. The 3 wood is off the heel and the driver is off the front of the heel. Naturally these ball positions are parameters and each player can test slight alterations to find the position that works best for them.
The basic swing problems are too much lower body movement in the backswing, highlighted by lifting the front foot and the knee moving inward too much. These are usually done trying to make a big shoulder turn and swinging to parallel or longer, causing the head and spine to move off the ball. What moves off the ball has to get back to the ball. Too little or too much move back and you are out of position for impact. This being out of position, usually too much forward of the ball, is also another major cause of the “Chicken Wing” forward elbow breakdown.
To highlight and cure all of these problems is to just state the tenents of the PPGS setup and swing and focus on them. The setup is built upon the shoulder wide stance and PPGS trademark wide knees over the ankles (ride the skinny horse look) with outward pressure. The PPGS is a limited 70 degree turn, resisting movement of the front foot and knee, to a ¾ vertical length, light club backswing with the forward arm over the toe line. Then it’s swing up to the T- Finish.
To simplify this is to emphasize that the PPGS setup is about being dynamically balanced and the swing is all about less body movement and turn so we can swing our arms faster. The less things move the more they stay the same. The less things move the less margin of error there is in the swing. Less error in the swing means greater probability of success.
The PPGS is all about less margin of error, energy efficiency and less stress and strain on the body. All of this adds up to more consistency in ball striking, hitting the ball more solid, straight and longer.
The Surge!
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I’m a newcomer to the PPGS and am loving it. I too suffered with thinning and topping the ball with irons and fairway woods and didn’t know why. I had studied the set up very closely and believed I was doing it correctly but still suffered from the topping syndrome.
What cleared it for me was two things. One – to ensure my left foot remained very still/passive in the backswing and Two – To swing-up to the finish in the forward swing. (I used to get on my left toes very slightly in the backswing and stayed there on the downswing – bad). Once I cottoned on to this last point I started hitting absolutely fantastic shots.
I can’t get enough of the PPGS. I’m still not perfect because I can lapse back in to old ways all too easily but believe the PPGS is the best swing I’ve ever seen.
i have just got the grip on my glubs thiker i hope this will help
could this be helpfull what is the ups and down for this action
thanks
geoff
Also, regarding topping, check if you have unconsciously hinged/cocked your wrists during the back-swing. Topping can come from cocking the wrists and then allowing them to stay cocked too long into the downswing, which will mean you’ve shortened your radius from your shoulders/chest to the ball that was initially set up at address (by virtue of your wrists being “broken” at impact). Remember Don’s mantra – as few angles as possible! This error means that you can still top the ball even if you maintain your spine angle from address through impact (which is not a little frustrating).
The cure is Don’s advice to not cock your wrists during the swing. If I find myself still hitting them thin after this check, I make a conscious effort to generate some centrifugal force in my hands at impact (by accelerating just the hands through the hitting area). This can help the club head descend that last fraction of an inch to stop the thin hits (without altering the swing in any unbalanced way – and without the fear of over-correcting and hitting it fat).
Paragraph 8(?)
Your are referring to “principles”, or TENETS of the swing; not the “tenants”, people who reside in rented property.
Surge,
Thanks for your help – great info. Merry Christmas to you DJ and those near and dear to you.
Geez David!! It is kinda like the old addage if you have to ask you can’t affort it!! I am sure we all know what he means. Yes it would be nice if everyone was an English major but that is not the case. Now…………Only problem I have with the “where to focus” idea is that in reality we need to focus on a point lower than the “equator” of the ball which is physically not possible. Since we are looking down on a sphere and can not see below th eequator unless we lean back and down. So……….how do we focus on a point below the equator without looking at the ground??? I know this may seem silly but it is a real problem for me as I have an astigmatism (sp?) and curves can look wierd anyway sometimes.
Dale:
Get a golf ball. Draw a circle around the golf ball. Or take a range ball for that matter. Place it on the floor with the cirle running parrallel to the floor. Now, if you stand right over top of the ball you can’t see anything below the line. However, if you back away from the ball as if taking a golf stance you can see below the line. You can’t see directly behind the ball and below the line but then that’s not where you want to focus anyway. The ideal spot would be the right bottom quadrant of the golf ball as you are facing it. To facilitate the focal point, it does help to practice with turning the logo to that position and center your attention there. When teeing up the ball for drives or on par 3’s, it would be good to position the logo this way to give you a focal point also. This practice will also help eliminate coming over the top. It is impossible to come over the top and strike the ball on the right bottom quadrant. Hope this helps!
One of the ways I found to cure my “worm Burners’ was to draw a line across the center of the ball.
When I set the ball up, on the driving range, I set that line at the back center of the ball. When I look at the ball, I focus on hitting that spot. On the course, I look for some mark on the ball that approximates this and I focus on that, when I can. Cool Hand Lee
surge this has nothing to do with todays article but its something you might talk about in the future. i was reading today about golf shaft loading. this is something i never gave thought to but was an interesting read. my queston is ,is this something that just happens with proper equipment or should we be thinking about loading the shaft in our downswing ? thanks for PPGS
Surge, I had been playing with trifocal glasses and went with your idea of bifocals for golf and they are perfect for my game. Thanks for that idea a few weeks ago.
Hi Don, Since you’re a titelist guru I have a question about ball flight. In perfect conditions with that robotic swinger unit, if a run of the mill range ball goes 250, with that same swing how far would a Pro V1 fly? Also is there much difference in V1 & V1x ball flight? One more thing, is there much difference in ball flight between Titelist and other top brands?
Thanks Don love the e-mails, keep em coming.
Rob,
IF you have been fitted properly and have the right shaft flex and load/kick point for your swing, you do not have to think about loading the shaft in the downswing. In fact, I am not sure we can even think about loading the shaft. I know we can feel the load and the kick,
The key is if you have properly fitted shafts for your swing speed and swing characteristics, all you have to do is swing and the shaft will do it’s job.
The Surge!
I normally play good golf- handicap is 9.5.
When my drives are good I lose my iron shots and vice versa.
Got any suggestions to cure this?
To Dennis Imhoff,
Check that our address is in your address book so your spam blocker will let it through.
You can also go the FAQ section and there are direction there to recover and get any missing daily videos.
The Surge!
I HAVE READ THIS WHOLE ITEM AND PICKED UP A COUPLE IDEAS TO TRY TOMORROW ON TOPPING THE BALL AND WORM BURNERS WILL TRY IT HOPEFULLY WILL IMPROVE MY GAME THE OTHER DAY I LEFT THE COURSE ALMOST IN TEARS AS I SEEMED TO HAVE A REAL PROBLEM THAT WAS EMBARRASSING AS I GOLFED WITH A TEAM OF 4 3 MEN AND ME ONLY SHOT I DID RIGHT WAS ON THE 9TH HOLE I CHIPPED UP RIGHT AND PUTTED IT IN BUT WAS STILL DISGUSTED WITH MY GAME. AS SOON AS I CAN GET YOUR VIDEO AND AUDIO IN ON THIS COMPUTER I WILL FEEL IT WAS WORTH THE $67.00 I PAID WHEN I PHONED FOR HELP I WAS RECOMENDED TO BUY THE $98.00 SERIES WHAT GOOD WOULD THAT DO IF I CAN’T EVEN GET YOUR VIDEOS TO COME IN ON MY COMPUTER.
To: Jim Benjamin, et al,
To stop “chicken wing”, tuck your left sleeve (for RH) of your golf shirt up under your arm pit and keep it there– same as during practice on range using a golf glove or towel in the arm pit when on the range. I play the ball one CLUB HEAD length behind the forward heel for all irons.
Hope it helps,
Michael
To David Smith
For shame!
You misspelled Don’s misspelling. He typed “tenents,” not “tenants.”
Tony,
Great question, however there is no mathmatical equation to figure this out. The difference between the Pro V 1 and V 1X is the firmness of the ball. The X is a tad firmer and spins less off the driver. The ball is made for higher swing speeds to control ball flight off the face so it does not ballon due to higher swing speed. This does not mean slower swing speeds can play it or that higher swing speeds can’t play the regular Pro V. I’m giving you the design concepts of the balls. There are plenty of great balls on the market. Bridgestone, Nike, Callaway, Srixon, etc. etc.. They all make comparable golf balls. The key is to find the ball that is made for your game. If you are a golfer that swings a driver at 80MPH let’s say, it’s a total waste of money to get the tour ball as you don’t compress the ball enough to get maximum playability. On the other hand, if you swing at 110MPH, you wouldn’t want to play a Bridgestone E6 as you’d compress the ball like mush. So, as with clubs, it’s really important to play the proper ball designed for your game.
NinerMike,
David did actually catch the typo… I corrected the post for the Surge after I saw David’s comment.
I had to look up both words myself to know which one was correct
Dean
Surge,
We all really need to understand the golf ball? I have a friend who laughs at me because I play with cheap balls. I have a six handicap and like playing soft balls with a 90 compression because I can work the ball easier. He says I can get my handicap down to scratch if I switched to a more quality ball?
So please, for the sake of us all–please explain the truth about a golf ball–is there really that much difference?
Happy holidays to you and yours.
Dan Palmer
If I start to top or thin the ball (mostly) its usually because of a hangover from my old swing where I would stand up, i.e. straighten my knees out, during the downswing. So to address this issue I go through the drill of reinforcing the 30* accordion affect, flexing my knees out wide with my feet splayed, riding the skinny horse. This helps with keeping the top of the spine stable and the lower body quiet during the swing.
I’d guess my swing is now about 80% arms and 20% body and I’m aiming for 90/10. From the Surge’s jrblueprint videos he commented that the ideal swing is about 95% arms & 5% body.
In regards to golf balls I too would like more information about the different characteristics. I prefer softer balls over the harder distance orientated variety, distance is not an issue for me but the short game is and I need all the help I can get. I also like the feel of a sweetly struck Pro V1 or Tour i. I avoid any golf ball with a “x” or “d” in their description.
I’m led to believe that most range balls, especially those stamped “limited range”, are deliberately designed to have limited performance. So dont beat yourself up over being about one to two clubs short of the distance you would expect when hitting the range ball.
Regards, Craig S
I HEAR SO MANY GOLFERS SAY I LIFTED MY HEAD WHEN THEY TOP THE BALL WHICH HAS TO BE THE WORST THING A GOLFER CAN SAY WHEN PLAYING A NORMAL SHOT ( PUTTING AND SHORT CHIPS SHOTS ARE DIFFERENT ) .
THE BEST WAY TO CURE THIS SHOT IF YOU CONSTANTLY TOPPING THE BALL IS FOCUS ON THE BACK OF THE BALL AT ADDRESS AND KEEP YOUR ARMS RELAXED AT ADDRESS INSTEAD OF THE STIFF ARMS ADDRESS POSITION THAT MANY GOLFERS TRY TO DO AND HAVE BEEN BROUGHT UP WITH WHICH IS TOTALLY WRONG AS THIS CREATES SO MUCH TENSION ALL THROUGH THE MOVEMENT.
MAKE A FEW SWINGS ON THE DRIVING RANGE AND ACTUALLY TRY TO JUST HIT THE TOP OF THE BALL FOR 10 SHOTS FOR EXAMPLE AND I PROMISE YOU THAT YOU WILL FIND THAT VERY DIFFICULT TO DO, AND THEN AFTERWARDS TRY TO HIT YOUR NORMAL SHOTS.
DO THIS EXERCISE FOR APPROX 60 BALLS AND THEN AFTERRWARDS GO OUT AND PLAY AND DONT THINK ABOUT ANYTHING OTHER THAN PLAYING GOLF WITHOUT ALL THOSE MANY SWING THOUGHTS YOU NO DOUBT HAVE BEEN PLAYING WITH FOR A LONG TIME AND ENJOY YOUR NEW EXPERIENCE………GOODBYE MR TOP SHOT..
MERRY CHRISTMAS AND HAPPY GOLFING.
Don, could you please give us some tips on how to play bunker shots? I am often unsure of how to play them and as a result often leave the ball in the bunker or hit it miles away from the hole, thus ruining my round. Thank you.
I’m extremely new to golf (about 1 month). I was continuously topping the ball, hitting it thin, whatever you like to call it, I was doing it. After several consecutive days, I was practicing my swing sans club in the kitchen and realized I was straightening my legs as I started my down swing. Excited, I went to the driving range the next day and was really hitting the ball well. I find if I really concentrate on staying in the PPGS stance until contact, then making like a pop tart, my topping is cured. Just an observation from a neophyte. Thanks for all the great tips surge.
To my fellow bloggers, please use the normal lower case in your blogs because the upper case reads like “YOU ARE SHOUTING IN MY FACE”. Sorry about being the “thin skin” but I enjoy reading and learning from all you champion bloggers.
Regards, Craig S.
CALLING THE SURGE!
I have been giving a bit of thinking to this topping the ball subject which has brought about many cure possibilities. I say if it works for you then use it. When my son plays with me once a year and thats about all he plays, if he is topping his tee shot, I tell him to tee it higher this is just simple logic and it works, I say dont shoot a terrible score by being stubborn, the place to fix your re-occuring swing faults is at the range .
I cant help but think from experience that with all the talk about distance on this website, that it has a correlation to the topping the ball that the golfers here are struggling with. They may have lost their tempo while trying to bash the ball as far as humanly possible.
When my swing begins to show problems which is normally a result of focusing on everything possible in an attempt to get more distance, I work on my tempo and things start coming back together almost immediately.
DISTANCE!!-If you want to hit the ball further, start with good tempo since this will improve your clubface to ball contact significantly, then work on your strength by exercising regularly, I do some light weight lifting and at night I work on flexibility while watching TV, working on your flexibility adds suppleness and that adds to quickness.
ALAS, The only way I have found to get more distance is to use a rotational swing and that is so incredibly hard on the back, I cant recommend it to anyone, I used this system for a while and was reaching par 5’s in two but there was a 2 day recovery period from the damage that was being done.
I am very satisfied with the distances I am acheiving with the PPGS, not to mention how nicely it treats my body and no I am not reaching par 5s in two shots anymore so I imiate the shorter hitters on the tour and work harder on my wedges.
Happy Golfing and Merry CHRISTmas to ALL
Ken
15 hdcp
Hello Don, i have written to you in the past….her’s my question concerring set-up…i am left handed but play right….my left arm is 3 inches shorter than my right….i once played to a soldid 7…being older, i really believe in your swing thoughts but i find that by opening my stance, about 25 to 30 degrees i am able to swing to nearly 60% and have no problem clearing my right side…considering my short left arm , do you see any problem with a open stance at address? THANKS…JOE….PS , if any out there has a similar disabilty, i would very much like hearing from you…
Are there any good drills for tempo? My practice swing looks good, but when I hit the ball its WHAM!
I know it is mental but I can’t seem to stop it. I try to think swing instead of ball, but my actual swing is not my practice swing.
Dear Don
I have 14 clubs apart from the putter
They are
Drver 10 degrees
3 wood 15 degrees
hybrid 18 degrees
hybrid 21 degrees
5 iron 26 degrees
6 iron 29 degrees
7 iron 33
8 iron 37
9 iron 41
pw 45
w 50
w 54
w 58
w 65
I am on a 20 handicap and can have trouble with green side bunkers.
Which club should I drop? The 65 another?
Thanks
Allen
Walt,
The solution is simple. Yes, simple. (I just wish more people would do this)! Go out and get Ernest Jones’ book “Swing the clubhead” method. Read it carefully and meditate on his concept. Practice the simple exercises then go grab a club. Believe me, you WILL be happy you did!
Don.
I agree with Lee on focusing on a spot on the back of the ball around the centre line.
I personally use the ball name most times or put a wee black mark on it with a marker pen.
Just seems to make you focus on that spot and not take your eyes of it.
Don,
I am the guy that never could hit a wood! When I first bought your book on line, I told you I would get back to as to how your lessons have either helped or did not help my golf game. (particularly hitting the woods).
Well today has just been a beautiful day here in California. Played golf this morning and I want to tell you the difference in my game since your lessons is like night and day. I never could get to the greens on a 4 par in two. It is so simple now it is rediculas. I even get to the 5 pars in two sometimes. Staying in the short grass really helps, so much that if I don’t land in the fairway now I just chip out to the fairway, just as you instruct!
To top it off several hours later I was called on the phone and told that we (meaning myself and 3 of my neighbors were hitting balls in the park tonight! The 4 of us put up $2.00 each time we hit balls and try to make it in the bucket. We take turns placing the bucket so the distance is never the same. If you remember I have never had a problem with my irons and have had several hole in ones.
One of the neighbors was all over the bucket tonight for some reason. Missed right by a foot, missed left by 6″. I figured it was time for me to make my move as I allways had in the past!
We dump about 150 balls on the ground then place the bucket somewhere out about 50 to 100 yards. The guy that was all over the bucket said its just a matter of time, he was going to win the money tonight. We each had only shot about 15 balls and there were plenty of balls left when I said well if you think your going to win, maybe I had better aim. When it was my turn I placed it directly in the bucket on the bottom, it bounced and hit the back of the bucket and flew up about 4 foot high in the air, when it came to rest it was in the bottom of the bucket. I took the $90.00 home with me.
I can’t tell you how happy I am with your lessons! Your are a good and sincere person and I wish you nothing but good.
Merry Christmas and happy holidays.
Rod Reynolds
HEY! LOOK HERE! IMPORTANT!
To All Of My On-Line Colleagues
When I started a year ago learning about the PPGS methodology, I never anticipated such a collective interest and such a collective acceptance of “The Gospel According To The Surge,” Lol!
In the spirit of this holiday season, I would like to compliment and acknowledge the brilliant and insightful swing information shared on this site by individuals brilliant and insightful!
In recognition of outstanding posters, the honor role listing is as follows….
“Mr. Chief Justice” Warren, Craig “I’m really 64” 63, Ken “The Gem” Genz, “Golfing Jones” GJ, “Ms Master Teacher“ Pamela, “Famous” Amos Terrell, “Handy” Randy S, Jim ”I Know How To Read” D, Tom “7-10 Split” Daugherty, Charlie “Rose,“ Ronnie “The Analyzer” Mc Curry, “Words Are Us” Stretch C, Michael “The SwingArch Angel,” John “Never” OB, Harry “Don’t Call Me Hairy” Thompson, Randy “The Dandy” Beckett, Jimsha, and Ken “When?” (Do we play)!
And last but not least, as regards the anatomy and physiology of all golf club implements, special commendation to the Master Club Fitter and Builder, J Griffin.
Together we have formed a PPGS resource team second to none! An investigative body sensitive to the pitfalls of the big muscle rotary swing of yesterday. Ours is a research body ever cognizant and watchful of PPGS interpretation inaccurate and misleading. And I also want to recognize those who have joined me since the first of the year in a crusade to vanquish those pathetic miscreant hackers whose sole existence in life is to disparage innovation and ridicule innovators. It now appears in the last few months, the instigators themselves have been vanquished into a well deserved oblivion. Amen!
MERRY CHRISTMAS !!!
I have been following with interest. one of the things that has not been mentioned in the materials I have seen so far is whether your method includes a weight transfer.
Don
I just cannot believe how easy it is to understand your comments and advice on how to use different clubs to get the best results. Your set up advice as far as the arms hanging straight down for the driver is something I may have been remiss about – a problem I have been experiencing is that whilst the ball has got away OK the distance has been severly affected as I seem to be hitting too much towards the heel of the driver and it is my intention now to make sure of the position of my arms and also to pay more attention to my feet set up!
I completed all the documentation for the special price on the peak performance driver swing but do not appear to have received any confirmation or been able to access it on my computer – is the video electronically generated to my computer or do I receive an actual DVD – down under here in New Zealand it takes at least 14 days for anything to arrive from the States if in fact I am to receive a DVD by post! Would you be kind enough to look into this for me?
Thanking You
Merry Xmas
Alan P
Surge,
Just a word on your use of the term “margin of error”.
A large margin of error means that you do not have to be very precise and still hit the target/accomplish the task. In other words, the margins are wide so it is easy to stay within them.
A small margin of error is the opposite. There is little if any room for deviation or else the attempt will fail.
A golf swing has a small margin of error for hitting a good shot.
To: J. Griffin. THANKS!!! After reading your response and we here being in the grip of winter and not able ot get to the range or the course for a while. I mulled it over in my head and stood in my living room simply alligning the ball and my point of focus over and over again. Your explanation was nothing short of perfect and I am certain that even WITH the astigmatism I fight every day I have a much better focus point than before. Again…THANKS!! and not just to J. but to all of you here on the site. Your insight, experience, and professionalism are indeed a great help and a gold mine to golfers if they will just listen and practice.
Dale
Hi Surge
Compliments of the seaon and the very best of wishes for 2010 to you and yours.
Surge your guidance please. In trying to arrive at the objective of swinging the arms faster and coming up like a pop tart I lose control and the ball goes exactly where I did not intend it to go..
“What am I doing wrong” and I say that knowing I may well incur your displeasure.
Your comments and advice re topping are very helpful. I am due for an operation this coming week and shall be “hors de combat” for a while but shall use the time to brain wash myself.
With good wishes
Eric
This article brougt back many memories of frustration. I would swing good on the practice tee, and then on the course top the ball most of the time. Then one day on a trip to Seattle, there was a “light bulb” moment. The golf courses were so green, and beautiful, it felt shameful to ruin the grass by taking a divot. It is OK to take a divot and ruin the grass. I still have to remind myself once in awhile that taking a divot is ok and part of the game.