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I received this E-mail from Gaetan, who was one of the students in our first PPGS Golf School in November at The PGA Golf Center for Learning and Performance in Port St. Lucie, Florida. Gaetan references speaking with Greg at the School and asking for clarification on forearm rotation in the takeaway. Greg MacDonell, PGA, is my head instructor and has been with me since 1987 when I started as the Director of Instruction for Sea Pines Plantation. I was home based at Harbour Town GL and Greg was the head professional. Greg and I have been together since then teaching the PPGS. To know how to answer this question, I called Greg to get clarification of his explanation at the school. So now, let’s look at Gaetan’s question and clear things up.
“In Port St.Lucie, the very first thing Greg corrected me on was avoiding the arm rotation during the takeaway. Without a slight CW (clock wise) forearm rotation, the face of the club closes slightly during the takeaway. Greg told me that this was the right way to ‘toe up’ in the mitt.
For me this made sense as rotating CW the forearms just make the club shaft go toward a lay off position even before I go up the tree. When I rotate my forearms CW I end up having to fight seriously with my shaft position at the top of the swing. This forearms rotation makes the shaft go naturally toward the 10:00 -11:00. I do not want to have to fight to achieve between the 12:00 – 11:00.
Now on the blog, other guys do not agree at all with this and they call it ‘toe down’ position which is contrary to Don’s ‘toe up’ vocabulary.
So clarification on this point also would be great!
Thanks again!
Gaetan”
Well here goes. I think you misunderstood Greg in his explanation of the proper arm rotation in the takeaway into the mitt. I say this because you write in the first sentence “without a slight CW (clock wise) forearm rotation” implies that you are not rotating the arms and thus would be taking the club away “toe down” and shut. You reference that other bloggers do not agree with the “Toe Down” as being contrary to my “Toe Up” takeaway into the mitt, which is correct. This “Toe Down” takeaway into the mitt would actually increase the odds of, when lifting up the tree, the arms would, in fact, over rotate and flip the club deep and laid off.
Here is a visualization test. Stand straight up and raise both hands like taking an oath. You see both palms are perpendicular to the ground as is your torso/spine. Now, holding the arms in the same position relative to your torso, bend at the waist assuming your setup position. Notice the hands do not change position to your torso. Your palms are now at the same angle as your torso/spine, around 30 degrees from perpendicular and somewhat facing the ground. Put a club in your hands in a square grip and you would see the club face is in the same angle as the palm of your lower hand.
Now, while still in the address position with hands up, lower your right or back arm and hand down to the mitt position. Notice that the palm is in the same angle to the ground and spine as it was in the oath position and still at 30 degrees short of perpendicular. This palm facing the ground would be the same angle as the club face would be when in the mitt. This palm and clubface down change for perpendicular happens because the torso bends over to get into the address position. What the torso does, so must the arms and hands to remain in balance.
The point is, there must be rotation of the arms, hands and club in the takeaway toe up into the mitt. The key is that the torso is bent over at address and also in the backswing. From this bent over position, the rotation of the arms and clubface DO NOT REACH 90 degrees where the palm and clubface are straight up perpendicular to the ground. They are around 30 degrees short of perpendicular to the ground and are very close to matching your spine/back angle and that’s what Greg was pointing out to you.
Check out the picture in the Foundations Manual on page 98 in the section titled “Takeaway and Turn.” I was already looking at it when I called Greg. He referenced this picture and page from memory as he uses it so much in lessons to show and clarify this point about arm and club rotation in the takeaway and backswing.
Greg said to me, notice that the heel of the club is closer to the perpendicular white line than the toe, which shows the face and palms are not perfect toe up. (Note: if the palms and the clubface were toe up on the line, they would have “over” rotated relative to the spine and would, from there, keep rotating in the lift up the tree to laid off and deep). This picture shows the club face leading edge and my back are on the same angle. That is what makes this 30 degrees short of perpendicular, palm and clubface down position in the mitt so important. It happens because the torso and arms stay in dynamic balance. Any more rotation and they would be out of balance.
There has to be arm and club rotation toe up in the backswing. The key is knowing that the hands and club do not completely rotate to arms and clubface perpendicular/90 degrees to the ground. They rotate only 60 degrees, as the picture shows, because that is in dynamic balance. From there, the lifting of the arms and club up the tree will flow to the vertical 12:00 o’clock light club position at the top of the backswing. The lift is more natural, flowing and controlled.
You have to concentrate and, as you said, “fight” to make sure you, “make the club stay vertical during the lift.” The slightest over rotation past vertical and you now have gravity and momentum pulling the club backward, which is laid off. The key is you have to make it happen as “you have to swing the club so it does not swing you.”
I hope this clears things up on takeaway rotation into the mitt toe up, is up. But it is not all the way to perpendicular at 90 degrees.
The Surge!
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brilliant don i caught my reflection in a window iwas so laid off i could not believe it following the drills are great i now have a feeling of were the club should be and a picture from the reflection were it should not be im hitting it realy solid now i will check with these drills while im practicing and before i start a round thankyou
you lost me completely on the feb 8th blog
I enjoyed the 10 lessons. My question is on the grip. Specifically how my hands should line up.
I am right handed and I feel comfortable having my right hand grip the club to where my right thumb is alined to the right of the left thumb…not over the top of the left thumb. I feel I get more power in this position but is this a fundamentally flawed grip?
I seem to be losing distance with the driver using the PPGS. All the other clubs are fine but there is just not the same pop as when using my old setup. Am I missing something?
if i practise swing as hard or fast as i like i stay on my feet as soon as i address the ball and swing i fall off my feet every one says slow down or dont hit so hard, as soon as i slow down or dont hit quite so hard i miss hit the ball, very frustrating, what can i do to keep my balance/ follow through..ps left handed player..
thankyou very much
I dont get anything that you said on the toe up and up the Tree Threory.
It would help if you showed pictures with your examples! Everything you have said makes a lot of sense. Cant wait to get out to the practice range to try them then onto the course to put them in action. Will write further comments on how they work!
what is the meaning of the word MITT in your golf lesson toe up/toe down
A picture is worth a thousand words, o ye of many words. Remember that our minds see a picture when reading a word.
For me the simplest way to visualize what we are trying to accomplish is to focus on the fingernail of the right thumb. At address, my R hand is on the top of the golf club (with the line formed by my thumb and forefinger pointing to my R shoulder) and the R thumbnail points directly to the club face. As I start my back swing, the R thumb and thumbnail go in a steady arc to pointing straight up in the air–the shaft is exactly at 12:00. From there I fire out AFAP toward my L side and my R thumbnail returns to pointing directly at the golf ball at the point of contact and continues through the impact zone and elevates up the tree to afford me a perfectly balanced finish–and the flight of the golf ball is perfectly straight and long. All over the top moves seem to involve letting the R thumbnail behind the club face and an out to in swing path. By maintaining the thumbnail at the golf ball relationship through impact, the out to in swing path disappears.
Well spoken Surge! I agree 100% the toe of the club is not straight up during the take away but parallel with the spine angle as you say. On the follow through the club is rotated to almost toe up as well……just a little short of. This is the proper release sequence to a powerfull swing. I always warm up with a focus on this method hitting balls with 1/2 swing to get the feel of this before a round. I watch alot of players come out and start swinging 100% and more when the swing needs to be gradually built up to that point to ingrain the muscles with the correct movement. One of the readers responded that he could not slow his swing down and make good contact with the ball and had balance issues. That sounds crazy to me because it should be easier to make better contact with a slower swing speed. Tempo, tempo, tempo that is the key to ball striking! No matter how fast you swing the club. Thanks for the swing tips Surge great job!
I drove the green at Tucson Nationals 1st hole (356 yds) last week and three putted for par! Haha
any tips on putting in the future?
the 30˚ short of perpendicular was VERY helpful
thanks
Don-
Would it be true that the club face is at the angle identical to the “left” wrist position (i.e. square/open/closed) assuming a right handed player? That is, as you swing back the left wrist is indicative of the swing path and the position of the face? And further shouldn’t the clubface and left wrist be on the same plane as the swing path? Meaning, the left wrist would visually be held at the same angle the swing plane is on and this would change accordingly to what swing plane the golfer uses (upright,flat, or in between) If as a lot of your responders have asked, some good visualizations are abundant on “YouTube” if you watch one pro after the next and just fix on their swing paths and wrist positions and don’t get caught up in all their other movements. Now this is certainly something “you” could video and show in slo-mo for all to see.
This to me is the most important clarification you have made Don. Jim McLean, David Leadbetter promote toe straight up halfway back. Also, Jimmy Ballard (who I think has some good stuff) got it wrong when he said “…halfway back and halfway through toe in the air is square…”. In his book (How to Perfect Your Golfswing) he contradicts himself by showing Miller Barber with the face of his driver looking down at the ground halfway back, actually in an EXTREMELY shut position.
In reality, all the great ball strikers have the toe over at the halfway back position. Some more than others. The only way the toe straight up would happen, without rolling the forearms to the right, would be if you stood straight up as you took the club back. You can check this by standing up from your setup with the clubshaft parallel to the ground. The toe will be straight up. If you turn your shoulders now the toe will still be straight up.
Rolling the forearms to the right to get the toe up is the single worst cause of getting the club laid-off and into TSBG and subsequently leading to the “over the top” downswing. Because you are opening the clubface up now you also have to close it in the downswing leading to all kinds of inconsistency.
Anyway, well done Surge. However, I agree with some posters here that 2 pictures here would have said it all. The right way and the wrong way.
Need more pictures. A picture is worth a thousand words. 80% of us are visual learners.
On your Feb. 8 lesson I do not understand it when I am in my stance with my palms up as I am taking an oath and then you say “take a club in a square grip”. I guess I don’t understand what a square grip is, could you please explain.
Don, I was folowing the concept with the hands up and the torso tilting until you said to move the back hand down. I’m from the old school where the school marm told us a picture is worth a thousand words.
These lessons are very hard to follow without photos or diagrams. I would bring on an artist or photographer to illustrate your words….too many moving parts in the swing (either PPGS or standard) to grasp in text only.
Are there any plans for future “academy” workshops? I notice the Port St. Lucie reference in this message and would be interested in knowing of any future dates in that area. Thank you.
Glen Mitchell
Would an inefficient arm rotation into the mitt and up the tree be a contributing factor to my coming over the top on the downswing? I have noticed when swinging a club that I have a wrist rotation, but not a forearm rotation. Because of just a wrist rotation, I have noticed the club face, especially with fariway woods and rescue clubs, is closed. This coupled with coming over the top causes a low ball flight. Would a more consistant forearm rotation help cure this problem? Thanks.
Hi Don,
I looked at your article today on forearm rotation, but maybe something got lost on its way over the Atlantic, but I could not find the pictures that you refer to. We have enough problems translating into the Queens English (we are in England) with Pitchers Mitts etc. so the diagrams really help.
Keep up the good work
Regards
Roger
I’m grateful for the instruction, but it might be a tad convoluted. Think: Stand upright with fingers interlocked as though you’re aiming a pistiol at a target in front of you. Then move your butt back, bend at hips, relax knees until you’re aiming at the ball. Next, rotate until you’re aiming at the pocket of the mitt. Now, push everything strait up to 3/4 position. You’re there. Now, leave the handle where it is (so to speak) and hit the ball. Trust me, it’ll lag but follow …powerfully.
To David Morin
That’s an excellent tip about visualising your top thumbnail. It really works for me!
Surge : Ihave bnnn trying your system but need help. I understand from your e-mail of Monday 2/8/2010 that you have aschool in port saint lucie west, where I live. I WOULD ENJOY ATTending. PLEASE ANSWER AS I NEED HELP . thanks in advance FRANK
;
What is the ‘Foundation Manual’ and where do I get it?
Richard S. Ault the manual is just as confussing as every thing else were you down loaded the video from the manual was their also.
Surge, the consensus is that you need make your instruction easier to understand. You lost me completely on this “takeaway forearm rotation” You need more pictures or diagrams or more precise directions. I hope you take this to heart, because I find it to be a major fault in your videos and instructions. Others seem to agree also. Thanks
I had a lot of trouble with this image until I opened up the foundations manual to page 98 and realized that I overlooked this fine detail and that means my club would have been laid off this whole time. I’ll have to correct this see how it goes.
Thanks Don.
Tony Rung.
Thanks for the tip but without pictures illustrating the narratives, its not very useful.
Toe up, toe down, in the mitt. I have no idea what you’re talking about. Without a video, this is useless.
I have to agree Don…Sometimes I think golf instructors forget that we as students dont do this full time, as much as we love the game and would like to. You need to simplify your teachings. In the mitt and up the tree is perfect, but you lost me on this post as well, and I studied Kellys “golfing machine…
I have a question about weight distribution during set up. In you video’s you and DJ recommend “pre-loading” the back leg to avoid swaying back and then forward. My regular golf pro tells me the opposite and that if you have to put your weight on one leg or the other, the front leg is better (similar to the stack and tilt guys). I’m confused. I’m also not sure if the pre-loading the back leg is for full swing shots or it is meant to apply to pitch shots also. I’m also not sure how much weight to put on my back leg. Could you straighten this out for me. Thanks.
If I now understand this clubface “toe up” correctly. When the club is taken back with a slight rotation of the forearms to the “toe up” position the clubface is approximately parallel to your spine angle. Not 90 degrees toe straight up to the playing suface as I have misunderstood in the past. Correct?
Thanks Don,
Rich
Surge,
Thanks for the new tip on the takeaway as I was unaware of the proper orientation of the club head face during takeaway.
I am puzzled, however, why this is coming up only now. No where in your manual do you mention this tidbit of info that is, according to you, so important to the takeaway. The picture on pg. 98 in the manual says nothing about the arm rotation in the narrative under the picture. The picture clearly shows what you are talking about, but no mention is made of its importance. Is there a legitimate reason for its ommission?
I also have a problem with this information in this post and its lack of it in the manual on pg. 60-63 under the “Takeaway” chapter. In that section you point out that the hips are the key to rotation of the body in the takeaway backswing and imply that there is no rotation of the arms at all, that the “arms and hands should be passive”. Well, active rotation of the arms is not passive.
Here is an excerpt from the last paragraph of the Takeaway chapter, pg. 63:
“Putting the clubhead “in the mitt” is an excellent way of assuring
yourself of making a one-piece takeaway with passive use of the arms and
hands. It is especially helpful in guaranteeing that the straight line at the
back of your left wrist at address does not change.”
There appears to be a contradiction.
I have been using the guidelines in the manual and focus on hip rotation to get to the angles that you need. I can rotate my hips to get the proper toe up position WITHOUT actively rotating my forearms, hands and club. Anybody can do it. So, is the rotation that you need achieved by rotating the hips properly with passive arms and hands, or do you actively rotate your your arms and hands (pronation and supination)? If it is with the hips, then why didn’t you mention it in this post?
Hi Surge; I have a problem again that I have had with all my other pro lessons and now has come back to haunt me again with the PPGS. That is the downswing. I have read all you have written and showed on the video’s but I cannot solidly hit the golf ball on the down swing. I either am back to hitting behind the ball or now also inside. After my first time using this new system I was amazed how well I was hitting the ball. ( After only 8 of your emails.) Maybe I should have just stopped then and been happy.
Now I have been reading all the emails and tips along with all the lessons and I am back to the same old problem. It looks so easy too. I’ve been stuck in this for 30 plus years. I can’t figure out what evil spirit keeps bringing me back to this broken piece of not being able to have a correct down swing that hit the ball. The real funny thing is, I cannot even feel the difference in the good swing I had after your first 8 emails and the ugly one I have back now. Got any advise you can pass on other than what I have already bought???
Thanks……………Shayne
P.S. I am not blaming this persistant swing fault on your system, as the other 3 pro’s could not cure it either. Heck, at least I’m not our $1000 per pro this time.
Ron,
The manual is under the “My Products” section. If it isn’t there then you may not have purchased it and the webmaster blocked you from getting it. The manual is not free.
Hi Surge
I think your doing a great job explaining PPGS swing, However i agree you should include more video’s this would give us a visual picture with action on precisely what is required in honeing this golf swing. I remember when i first signed, you said this swing will be mastered in minium time. But now I’m reading all the inputs on how difficult it gets when you can’t follow your reading intructions without video illustration. I know video’s cost money to make, but speaking for my self I’m willing to pay a few bucks for them, if it will assist me in mastering the PPGS. I believe the folks would do the same. I enjoy your e-mails, I try to read them, How ever the one on how to lose weight does not belong in golf lessons time frame. Thanks again
have a great day!
Jim’
Welcome my friends to the show that never ends, see the show, see the show. Brought to you by the PPGS medical forum. We can fix your game but use snake oil for the rest of the old age problems. I should know, I have plenty myself. I would prefer to talk about golf.
Surge, please help. All of your materials which I bought on line say that you keep the palms perpendicular to the ground throughout the swing. see Secret #2. Now you seem to be saying that the palm is short of perp[endicular (90degrees) and only 60 degrees. See the exceprts from you recent email which I have copied and added below. Please explain what you are saying here.
“That is what makes this 30 degrees short of perpendicular, palm and clubface down position in the mitt so important. It happens because the torso and arms stay in dynamic balance. Any more rotation and they would be out of balance.
There has to be arm and club rotation toe up in the backswing. The key is knowing that the hands and club do not completely rotate to arms and clubface perpendicular/90 degrees to the ground. They rotate only 60 degrees”
Where do it get the Foundation Manual? Several posts ask for more pictures. I agree.
Hi guys, Gaetan here. I am the guy that ask this clarification to Surge. Let me try to give you my understanding in other words.
In fact, the ‘toe up’ expression relates to your spine inclination. It does not relate to the ground nor the sky. So. ‘toe up’ does not mean that the leading edge of your club is vertical to the ground when in the mitt. In fact, as you can see on page 98 (foundation manual), the leading edge in the mitt is about 15° short to vertical and this is the correct definition of toe up. If you over rotate your forearms so that your leading edge is vertical to the groundf (90°), you will find out (and this was my problem) that you will struggle to get the club toward a comfortable 12;00 o’clock position at top of your swing. The club will want to go to a natural 10;00 to 11;00 o’clock position if you are lucky.
Because of the relation between the spine angle and toe up position, we have to rotate the forearm cw about 15° if you adopt a 30° torso inclination at address and want to end up with a leading edge around 15° in the mitt. So, you kind of subtraction 15° angle to the leading edge by rotating your forearms. Failing to subtract this 15 °, you would end up with a 30° dead shut club in the mitt.
Personally, I had a lot of success today by standing up a bit more at address, say somewhere between 15 and 20° instead of 30°. From this position, I merely do not have to rotate my forearms to get my leading edge at the required 15° in the mitt … my spine angle just about matching the angle of my leading edge.
I hit over 90% of the fairways today and felt a lot more comfortable in my swing.
Hope my experience can be of assistance.
Gaetan
It just seems as if we can ask ? till we’re blue in the face and never get an answer!
I was lost after the first few sentences.
I need help understanding this one.
Thanks, L
Gaeten, I understand the club is not perpendicular, but what about the palms? Surge seems to be saying now they are not perpendicular also which is 180 degrees out from page 85 in the manual where he says. “Now, the interesting partis to look at your palms during the entire circle. They remain perpendicular to the ground the entire time…. This perpendicular position is almost 100 percent peresent in the swing in good posture even where the spine is bent over at around 30 degrees from the hips”
this really needs to be clarified–
Jim Fahy, someone gave you an answer yesterday to your question (Posted Below), I have found that most of the time, you have to go back and read the previous posts as by the time I normally read these posts, it is already late and most of you have gone to bed so I wont be surprised if you still dont read this post even though it will be the second time it has been posted:
For Dick and Jim Fahy; re the Shoulder Tap Test: Maybe I can help you visualize the test.
1. Set up, then in slow-motion make your normal torso turn and club backswing, now stop and hold that position at the top of your backswing.
2. Slightly open your top hand (Right hand for right-handed golfers) and gently let the club fall from it’s “top-of-backswing” position to your right shoulder.
3. If your PPGS limited turn is correct, the club should fall in the center or soft part of your right shoulder.
4. If you have too much turn and backswing, the club will fall on your bicep.
5. If you have WAY too much turn, the club will miss your whole right side and fall to the ground.
6. If you’re left handed, just put in “left” instead of “right” and you’ll have it.
Hope this helps and have a great day. R2
Dick,
I am gripping my clubs using a neutral grip, e.i. with my left thumb between 1;00 and 2;00 o’clock at address. This puts my left hand a bit turned in (about 15-20° maybe).
Now, from my set up position (which is 15-20° bent over), for the takeway, when I turn my shoulders to get the club head into the mitt (without merely rotating my forearms as I do not need it to get to the correct toe up position in the mitt (correct toe up position=leading edge short by15° to vertical), my palms become truly perpendicular to the ground and remain perpendicular all the way to the T-finish. Thru the impact zone, my palms/forearms rotate to release the club but they remain perpendicular to the ground.
I maybe cutting off a bit from the 30° torso set up by Don’s teaching but I feel that I have simplify my swing, feel good about it and can repeat it with good results (including a more comfortable12;00 position at top). Hope Don will consider this modification as an acceptable personified change.
Hope this can help.
Gaetan
Surge,
Here I go again, sorry.
I am really having trouble with terminology here, (Layed off, square grip While bending over 30 degrees with palms in the oath position! (I assume that would be one hand on each side of each shoulder). Now I assume you want me to forget this position by putting one club gripped square? by both hands? Here’s where I get into trouble! Am I suposed to put a club in my hands (regardless of square grip?) At this exact point where is the club shaft aiming up in front of your face and over your head? At the address position it would the club face would be pointing left so I can not see the reference of the face pointing the same as the left hand?
Secondly when layed off I assume it means the opposite of shut??
It’s been another long day. I guess I will come back to it in the morning.
I guess I should be more than happy with what I got so far, I am hitting the ball.
Rod
surge,
forget all that I typed, I now have confused myself?
Sorry Rod
I know I speak a different language to American but this is totally incomprehensible!
Diagrams, diagrams, diagrams – they are worth a 1,000 words.
If you take the club back up the tree and in the light position, when you release the right hand why does the club not fall staight down to the ground and not across the shoulder? It would if you released both hands if you had it straight up in the light position.
I have went back and looked at page 98 and page 101 it appears there is a slight difference at the top which is probably the completion of the 70 degree turn. I noticed in the illustrations that the club comes up to the top 12 oclock position on page 98, then a slight movement 3 to 4 inches more inside on page 101, then the bump of the left side and the hands moving down towards the inside of the BACK of the ball, skipping the rock and up to the balanced T finish. I do believe there has to be something to get us felling from the top we are attacking the ball from the inside.
Sorry spelling mistake. I do believe there has to be something to get us to feel that from the top we are attacking the ball from the inside.
Dick,
I too was confused as you are about the issue of perpendicular palms during the swing and the “around the circle” test Surge references in the manual. I have come to the conclusion that the palms are perpendicular AT ALL TIMES no matter what angle your torso bends at address and during the swing. He says this in so many words in the last paragraph on pg. 85 of the manual.
But what does this mean? If you were to take your top of the backswing position with palms perpendicular to the ground, your torso bend over at 30 degrees (or what ever angle is for you), and you froze this position, and then, from the hips, bend your torso back up to a vertical spine position, your palms would not be perpendicular to the ground. They would be angle backwards at the angle your torso was bent at address and top of the swing. This implies that during the backswing your forearms/palms rotate in a clockwise direction (for righties) compared to the address position to ensure the palms are always perpendicular to the ground. Otherwise your palms would be facing forward at the bent torso angle initiated at address. This is what the Surge is describing in this post. I disagree with Surge in that I think the clockwise forearm rotation takes place later in the backswing, i.e., from the “in the mitt” position to the top of the backswing position, or during the early part of the lift phase (at least for me it appears that way).
I think that Surge emphasizes the “palms perpendicular” theme in order to effect the “Ferris Wheel” vertical swing that is a necessary part of the PPGS. The around the circle test is confusing in that it infers that the palms are perpendicular to the torso during a normal swing. The palms are only perpendicular to your torso in the around the circle test because yout torso is vertical! In fact, your palms are NEVER perpendicular to your torso during the swing except at the T finish, when your torso becomes vertical. Hope this clears up the confusion. It would be nice if the Surge would provide some clarifying feedback.
This is interesting and will send me back to the Manual, but isn’t this a huge revision of one of the most fundamental principles in the system?
For 3 months it has been drilled into me: “Toe up and into the mitt.” Now that is regarded as a major error. The toe should not be up. It should be about 2/3 up?
Bob B. thanks for your explanation. I am still keeping the hands perpendicular and have no problem doing that with the club slightly closed when in the mitt. But Surge’s description in the first email implied that the hands should not be perpendicular when in the mitt. So I agree that there needs to be plenty of explanation here. Surge uses popular expressions like ” swing uup fast like a pop tart.” But here again –how do you ge by the pure physics that you start be swinging down–otherwise how do you get the clubhead to the ball? This confusion is a major propblem with his PPGS system.
Hi Surge,
I too find it difficult to follow some of your explanations without pictures. Will you be doing this anytime soon? It would definately help many of us that are suggesting this.
Thanks
Bob
Baloney!! – All this minutia is what kills the swing. 15*,30*,60* perpendicular, 70*, 3/4 bla, bla, bla!! There is no way you can concentrate on a good fluid swing with all this detail in one’s head. You’ve got to get broader concepts and feel and then just swing away. I defy any one to tell me that they can look at the clubhead at the “toe up position” and say it’s at 60*; that is of course they have it perfectly square at address and their take away to “in the mitt” is a perfet 60* rotation!! My I offer my suggestion on the take away; starting with the basic Surge fundamental in keeping the left wrist straight. (For right handers – sorry leftys)
With a straight left wrist – SLW:
At address – hands are perpendicular and above the toe line.
First take away move – turn SLW clockwise so that it remains above the toe line but is now parallel to the toe line; something has to give here and it’s your right elbow – it folds back alonside my right hip. Forget about the clubhead! it will be “in the mitt”properly with the shaft parallel to the ground.
Next move – Straight up the tree as Surge says
Next move – The bump as Surge says.
Next move – simultaneously with the bump, bring the arms down the tree; this would mirror the “in the mitt” position” with one caveat – the weight is now on the left side, due to the bump.
Final move – swing up to the finish releasing the swing by folding the left elbow alongside the left hip – then up to the T.
This is how I visualize the take away and beginning of the downswing – two positions; “in the mitt’ and “up the tree”. Hope this helps!
Dick,
I fully understand and sympathize with your confusion about the terminology and concepts that the Surge uses to describe the swing.
The forward upswing AFAP is really a psychological trick to get you to focus on swinging up to the finish instead of focusing on hitting down on the ball, taking a big divot and forgetting to finish the swing properly. You are correct from a physics perspective that the first move after reaching the top of the backswing is the bump and the downswing to the ball-otherwise you could not hit the ball. Surge, however, wants you to focus on the upswing and finish so that you won’t think about the downswing and thus the bump and downswing are almost automatic in reaching the ball and completing the swing. You should read pg.87-88 in the manual to understand how he arrived at this concept (his “epiphany”) and see that that it is a change of focus mind trick.
Surge wants you to think about swinging “through the ball” instead of “at the ball”.
Hey, I sincerely think that this is really not complicated at all to get your club in the right toe up position in the mitt and this is very important if you want to avoid severe lay off at top of your swing.
But everyone having their own particularities, the necessity for rotating the forearm to get your club into htat position will not be the same for everyone and will depends on 1) your grip (stronger or weaker) 2) how much you are bent at address, this depending also on how tall you are. DJ is very tall and he has to bend voer more. Therefore, he would have to rotate his forearms more than me (I am 5′-8”).
The simple objective is to get your club head (leading edge) about 15°short of vertical (toe up definition) to ground in the mitt position as shown on page 98 of the manual. So, toe up is not 90° vertical but 15°short to vertical.
Why is this club head position important and highly recommendable? Because it sets up your palm truly perpendicular to the ground at that point and will facilitate the proper and natural routing of your club to a comfortable 12;00 vertical at top instead of having to flight a lay off position. Try it and you will see. That’s it!
But remember that the more you bend over at address and the weaker your grip, the more forearm rotation you will need to reach the recommended toe up position in the mitt (which again is 15 ° short of vertical as clearly shown on page 98 of the manual.
To make thing easier for me, I merely rotate my forearms because I do not need to as I only bend around 20° instead of 30° (I am 5′8”) and I use a neutral grip (my left thumb at 1;30 o’clock). In this position, I turn my shoulders in a one-piece takeaway maintaining my hands at my sternum and … bingo! … the club face sets up automatically the the recommended toe up position. So easy!
Gaetan
i am completely lost w/out visualations, sorry, heaven knows i could the help.
With regard to rotating the forearm at takeaway to get to a toe up position please everyone look at the videos of D.J. swinging every club in the bag with the 2 views. It’s as plain as the nose on our face that he IS ROTATING his forearm when taking the club back, which is different than what is in the manual etc, etc. The videos don’t lie. It was the first thing I noticed as I watched them and it is a major difference between actual execution and the written explanation of the swing.
Dear Don
About year ago i ordered the 10 lessons(and paid fot them) for the PPGS.
as my computer crashed last month i lost these very intersting lessons.
would u be so kind to send them over again please?
many thks
Etienne deklippel
from belgium
Stop. Before anyone can take the club away you must have a proper grip and your hands must be placed on the club in the right position. All this toe up, toe down stuff starts with a poor grip. Try this.
Put your hands on the grip as you normally do. Don’t grip it look you would a sledge hammer. Now, lift your hands straight in front of you with the club perpendicular to the ground. Notice the face of the club. Is it closed.? If so, that will make it almost impossible to have the toe up without a lot of harm rotation. Fix your hands on the club again. But, this time check that the club face is turned so that the leading edge of the club face is perpendicular to the ground.
Now, that doesn’t correct all of the problem. You must not move move the club away from the ball with your hands. If you do, the club head will always be trailing your hands. The shaft must still nearly on the same line of your forward arm. That is the left arm and club shaft form a straight line.
Try this. Grip the club. Raise the club to waist high. Don’t turn your body. Rotate the club so it parallel to the target line or toe line. The arm and shaft create one line. The bicep of your left arm is tight to your body. Put your right hand on the club. You’ll notice that the club is facing toe up. If not, start again. Now that you have the club toe up, bend over. The face of the club will be facing down. Not totally down, but at an angle. Now you’ll see how much you must rotate your arm to again have the club in a toe up position. Writ me if you don’t understand and Surge if you need a great teacher, contact me. No, I am not a certified professional, just someone who has taught 100’s of folks improve their game. They have all remarked, and I mean all of said, “You should teach”. There you have it.
Don’t be so technical. Get a full length mirror. It will be your best friend. Teach yourself.
To Tom, First of all I’d recommend re-reading what you wrote. Instruction is hard enough without trying to decipher what someone has written.
Surge I found your videos extreamly helpful and my game has improved. On the bonus CDs the one about the flop and bunker shots, you state that the stance is open and the club face is open. What I would like to know is the direction of the swing, does one swing in line with the club face, the stance or at the flag?
Thanks for all your advise.
Hi Surge! I am enjoying the videos, but like many of your viewers, all this technical stuff just doesn’t translate in the imagination. Surge, do you remember the old Bobby Jones videos of the 1930’s. They were wonderful! He would give instruction as the video was played in slow motion. If you could do something like this, perhaps with a superimposed clock, or mitt or tree or degree of rotation. A slow motion view of “toe up” and all this other stuff I believe would clinch it in the mind. I try to catch what you are saying by looking at yours and DJs videos using all the different clubs, but you are just moving too fast. Thanks Surge!
One of my problems lies with the way I set my wrists at address. They’ve always tended to be cupped, with the result I have never been able to achieve the square position at the top of the backswing. Am I right in thinking this rather important technicality has been understated? I believe that, reading between the lines and certainly from what I can see in your and DJ’s swings, a straight left wrist at address is fundamental to the success of the PPGS.
You often refer to the “Manual”. In this email you stated: “Check out the picture in the Foundations Manual on page 98″. As a subscriber, was I suppose to receive a “Manual?”
Thank you
Don, you’ve mentioned from time to time the group lessons you participate in… do you have a published schedule of these events? steven hutcherson
I signed up, opened your first e-mail, looked all over for 15 minutes, couldn’t find any free video instruction.
Hi Don,
Playing tennis last September, fell hard on my right shoulder and ended up with Rotator Cup injury which keeps me from hitting Backhand and Overhead in tennis, but apparently does not affect my Golf Swing, that much. MY MRI shows 2 ruptured Tendons and torn Labrum. I do not want surgery until later this year, after the summer. Do you think it is OK for me to play golf if I have no pain in doing that, and since your swing is designed to prevent back problems, might your swing also be good for Rotator Cup injuries of my right shoulder. I am right handed, by the way and I did play in a local MGA golf tournament one week after I injured my shoulder last September.
Surge,
I know you probably can’t do this but it sure would be much more valuable to “see” these tips rather than trying read, visualize and do.
I know as for myself, I need to see more than read.
Thank you, sir.
Dusty