The first PPGS School had a number of students that had the same problem that I read in many blogs. Basically, it is that they are hitting their irons and hybrids better and the driver, but are loosing distance. They like the solid and straight but would like to get their distance back.
Is this problem of more solid and straight but hitting the ball shorter a conundrum? After all, hitting the ball more solid and straight is suppose to equate to hitting the ball longer, not shorter. Since a conundrum is defined as a puzzling problem. The good news is I have the solution.
Most of the golf school students were trying to completely switch from being rotational swingers to the PPGS. They had the PPGS trademark setup: narrower stance, wide knees with outward pressure and flared feet. They had pretty good posture, but many had the right arm too high and straight as we discussed in yesterday’s article.
They had a pretty good takeaway lifting up into the mitt, with a few taking the club away a little shut. They all had a pretty good vertical backswing standing, the club up at least past 11:00 o’clock, which is well within the acceptable range of vertical. Lastly, they all were trying hard to stand the club to the T-finish, and most were all close to a pretty good T – Finish. The problem with the finish was their hands were a little wide outside their forward shoulder and too far from the forward ear. Thus, their hands and club were deep because they turned too much in the finish with their shoulders and chest facing too far past the target.
There were a few that definitely had the problem of hitting pretty good solid and straight shots but suffering the shorter distance syndrome. They couldn’t figure out the true power source of the PPGS as compared to the rotational swing they used. Rotational swing power comes from a big backswing torso turn transition to a fast turning or snapping of the forward leg and hip, turning and pulling the arms and club down to and through the ball. The majority of the power comes from the torso pulling the arms and club. This big turn and torque generating swing is also very stressful on the body and a high source and cause of injury.
The PPGS uses an alternative power source that generates power using the law of centrifugal force. Centrifugal force is defined as, “using or acted upon by a force that tends to make rotating bodies move away from the center of rotation.” The best example of centrifugal force is swinging a rock on a string. The faster the rock swings around the center the less the hand holding it moves. In swing terms, the hand is symbolic to the body and the rock and string symbolizes the club head, shaft and forward arm and hand of the golfer. This means, in simple terms, when making a PPG limited turn swing that you have to keep your torso quiet and you MUST SWING YOUR ARMS FASTER!
This is the same concept or principle as throwing a ball farther. You have to add more energy and effort to add speed in moving your arm and hand to add distance to the flight of the ball. This is the same for hitting the ball. You have to just, plain and simple, keep the body quiet and swing your arms and hands faster.
A student of mine once asked DJ who was hitting balls on the range what he did when he wanted to hit the ball harder or longer. Standing in his setup as he was just about to hit a shot, DJ looked up and said, “I hold my knees and legs more.” And then pointing his right hand at the target he added, “I swing my arms faster that way.” I think DJ’s comment about hitting it farther or harder by “SWINGING THE ARMS FASTER” toward the target is the most simple and best definition of the PPGS Power Source.
The key is you have to know this, and program it into your mind, to make you swing your arms faster, but within limits of maintaining good balance and control.
Tomorrow I will add more on this subject of the PPGS power source of faster swinging arms. I will introduce you to Anthony, a good friend of mine who has a unique situation that will demonstrate the PPGS limited turn faster arm swing concept to the MAX. Anthony’s swing will really amaze you. So don’t miss reading tomorrow’s article.
The Surge!
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why I hit to the right, and ball spinning to the right
I have a problem hitting a 3wood. I have practiced and practiced and I cannot get the ball in the air. It is most hated club in my bag. I am ok with the driver, 9, 8, 7 and wedge but I struggle with my 5, 4 and 3 irons. Can you please help me out on this one.
Stella
You statement in your last e-mail
“You’ve seen a sofball pitcher, right? How does he or she get more spped on tghe ball. Generating more speed has little to do with the body — it’s all arms.”
While I can’t commend you on your spelling, I will have to disagree with your softball analogy – I grew up in Canada and lived there for the first 30 years of my life. Unlike the U.S. Men’s softball (fast pitch) is significantly more popular than baseball. I pitched for some 16 years. Throwing softball has everything to do with the body, in particular the legs – in any case it certainly is not all arms.
Walla Walla, Washington’s Eddie Feigner of Eddie Feigner’s, The king and his Court, a four-man fast pitch team, was the greatest hurler of all time. He taught how the entire body, and not just the arms are used in pitching.
You may wish to discuss this with Jennie Finch or Cat Osterman, as well.
Hi Guys;
Had my pro video my new PPGS swing. Two concerns showed up on video.
When I started my backswing by turning my left hip, (left handed), my left knee also wandered back and then on my follow thru my knees moved forward. if I concentrate on holding them still I get too tight.
On the positive, my swing path is close and my club head speed increased 12 mph.
My pro says that solid contact will be inconsistent with the knees moving in that manner.
Suggestions?
Avie
Subscriber,
You’ve seen a sofball pitcher, right? How does he or she get more
spped on tghe ball. Generating more speed has little to do
with the body — it’s all arms.
If you’d like more distance, think speed. Click here to learn aqbout your arms.
Spell check please….
To avie
I am not fond of using the hips to initiate the backswing. More times than not, the problem you describe in your left knee action is a common complaint. And yes, it you concentrate on keeping the knee “quiet,” tension is the result.
Concentrate on one thing in starting the backswing. Swing the clubhead with your hands. Concentrating on this motion will automatically place your knee in the right position at the right time and will automatically maintain the PPGS positions.
Check out the “Words from Warren” on this site for additional guidance..
I have to agree with Ron Tuohimaa about the whole body being involved in the swing. When I am twirling a rock on a string- or in my case, twirling the tee anchor tether back around the tee to put it in my pocket, I am moving the tee (body) and not the tee anchor tether (arms). However, I notice that the quieter I keep that tee, the faster the tether wraps around the tee. Thus, it seems that the body is the source of the force, coupled with correct timing to transfer the most energy from the body to the arms.
I mention this because when you say “faster swinging arms” I automatically think ’swing the arms faster with no relation to the body’ and I swing outside in for a slice.
Hey Don –
Let me start by saying I’ve always been a rotary swinger; I’m also am very flexible. Having played for about 50 years (I’m 57), I play well, like to practice and love to play. I was in the golf business for 25 years so there isn’t much I haven’t tried. I’m also pretty much of a skeptic. I’ve given PPGS a shot and have worked very hard on the fundamentals. I’m not telling you anything earth-shaking when I say that it will work. I will also say that I’ve read some pretty scathing remarks directed at you and PPGS. I don’t blame you for not wasting your time defending yourself and PPGS after all, why should you; if somebody doesn’t want to utilize the PPGS program then they shouldn’t. And you come across as an alright guy.
What I’m looking for is to get better. I’ve played some good golf using the rotary swing but it has taken enormous dedication and hours on the range to keep the ball striking working. With PPGS, I’ve spent very little time before a round getting tuned-up. Straight back and straight through fewer angles, keeping the club in-front of me (the toe-line). I’ve played five rounds using it and haven’t blocked it once, nor have I hit that nasty little (Mr. Snappy) duck-hook. All rounds have been 75 or under from the middle of the track! I’ve started hitting some par-5s in two again which is now possible again since I’m in the trees. And 8 iron through 60 degree wedge barely leave the stick.
My thanks to you will be playing better and getting back to plus, and that means I just have to putt better.
Bruce Kelso
I totally agree with Ron here. The arms can’t move faster without the body creating the force, just like the hand has to start the string and rock by overcoming its MOI. I think the wording needs to be changed where the body stays rigid to create a stronger coil and the body can create the force to move the arms faster. If anyone takes this literally, we are going to have a lot of slicers on our hands.
Talk about an injury waiting to happen. You’re keeping the big muscles static and trying to speed up the smaller muscles. That’s a recipe for injury and a reverse weight shift!
‘loosing’ should be, ‘losing’, Don
Also, your analogy to softball pitching is off the mark.
As a former college softball pitcher I can say that pitchers rely a great deal on their legs, stride and wrist snap, not just arm speed.
BIG DON
I HAVE THE ,
PEAK PERFORMANCE GOLFSWING FOUNDATIONS MANUAL AND THE FOUR DVD’S.
I MISSED THE GOLF SCHOOL YOU HAD IN NOVEMBER.
KEN GAVE ME GREG MACDONNELL PHONE NUMBER AT OLD SOUTH GOLF LINK.
I WILL MEET GREG ON MARCH 17-2010.
WILL BE TAKING INSTRUCTIONS ON MARCH 18, AND 19.
HOPE TO LEAARN AS MUCH AS I CAN. WILL PICK HIS BRAIN DRY.
THANK YOU KEN FOR ALL YOUR HELP.
BIG GREG WILL SEE YOU IN MARCH.
UNTILL THEN EVERYONE STAY SAFE.
JB.
THE
CALLAWAY
KID.
There is no such thing as a fastball pitcher who throws 100+ mph (except for maybe Eddy Feigner of the King and His Court). The top pitchers in the world are pushing 70 mph on the best of days. And to say that it is all in the arms is totally inaccurate. Any pitcher who is all arm might throw 50 if they are lucky. This being said, your softball analogy is out of place.
Folks,
I would like to believe in the PPGS, but the fact remains that no golfers on the PGA Tour (or any other tour, to my knowledge) use this swing, and that includes the fellow we all root for, D.J. I think the PPGS should be presented as an alternative to the “standard” swing that has been universally taught and used almost since the game began.
To advocate the PPGS as a method that is easier on the body than the “rotational” swing is perfectly valid, in my opinion, but to keep maligning the “rotational” swing as inferior seems really unrealistic and unwise, since it is the swing that is–and always has been–used by accomplilshed players.
Excuse the typo in the word “accomplished.”
With a quite lower body you must either push or pull to swing. Look at the PPGS swing and you will see that the leverage or load of the swing is from the left side, so the action from the top is to engage your core and pull down to the ball with your left side starting the downswing. As the hands begin to start down you will then engage your right side to keep increasing the speed of the hands through impact. Centrifugal force requires leverage.
The quieter the lower body is the more leverage you are able to store at the top of your swing. The left side is in control so it must engage the downswing. However the right side provides a needed burst of speed to the hands to allow for a balance of the right and left side through impact. http://www.aboutjuniorgolf.com
To: Trevor Palmer;
Click on the word “unsubscribe” and you will not receive any more news letters, you idiot!
I struggle with being able to practice the movement of the rock toss. I am a lefty and play right so it is difficult for me to try and do the motion of skipping a rock with my right hand. Is there another drill I can do to practice this motion.
First I want to thank you for your PPGS. I have worked with this swing now all golf season and have found it to work very well. It does help with not having a sore back after a round of golf. I have not lost distance with the swing either. I must say at first I did because I was swinging with just my arms. Reading here some of the replies and questions from some with loss of distance, First if you swing your arms faster your lower body will get involved. It has to , that is physics! The power and distance comes from the use of the coil and legs. I find one thing with the PPGS swing is that it sets the club in the back swing on plane and if you take it to 12 or past and lay it back to even horizontal, the down swing into the toe line, your contact will be more consistent. I also find that having shorter clubs then standard works best for the more up right swing of the PPGS swing. I have cut my driver down to 43 inches for my height. As for my irons they were shorter to begin with. I do have one question after viewing your swing video showing you hitting all your clubs Don. I noticed that you have a little turn of your hips to the left before you start any back swing. You do this on every club you use in your video. What is that for. When you do that you seem to actually take the club back a little bit inside from the toe line. Is your ball flight a slight draw with all clubs. With that little turn of the hips before you take your back swing setting the club for an inside to slight outside swing at impact?
Don,
Just bought your vidoes, thought they were great, but I seem to have a pull to a pull hook on my irons and a pull fade to a pull slice on my driver. Can you shed some light on what I might try?
Also, I live in Scottsdale, AZ – do you have any intructors in AZ that teach your methods?
Thanks,
Art
Now Im jealous of all you golfers in Vegas since all of you will be getting free lessons from now on!
hey don
just wanted to say thank you for taking your time to write articles.. im greatful there is still some people out there wiling to take time to teach, write and answers. Hats off to you sir and i look forward to your next article !
To tcb – aka “Totally Condescending Butthead,” aka “Jimmy The Hammer Davis
How sad and forlorn a figure you present. You show up on a productive and proactive golfing site as an obscure downtrodden creature clamoring for attention. Your action has dried up in Vegas as can be attested by the 20 greatest teachers you claim to know who strangely resist your overtures for acceptance into their fraternity. This is because you are not only a pain in the neck as well as everyman’s posterior but you devalue so much your golfing acumen by stating it’s worth a big fat zero and hence free to anyone who might stop by your apartment.
Hey Don, according to the show Sport Science the arm of a Quarterback throwing a 60mph spiral is actually faster than that of a pitcher throwing a 95mph fastball. They also showed negative results from warming up with a heavy club or 2 clubs compared to just swinging their regular driver. So my question is would practice swinging with just a club shaft and no head help make your swing faster.
Thanks
To Mr. Las Vegas!
Stay in Las Vegas don’t preach your ignorance in here, no one asked you too.
I have played golf for 45 plus years and Don is the only teacher that ever did one thing for me and I have been to many pros. Rip off, I don’t think so!
Nowhere have I ever been given the knowledge he has passed on to me and many other satisfied customers.
It would be my guess that you need counseling.
Rod Reynolds
To tcb’
‘Nonsense; crap; manure’? Perhaps you could enlighten the rest of us as to how the teaching of good alignment practices; good posture; simplified swing processes, etc, can be described in the above mentioned derogatory terms?
Swinging a golf club may be an exact science for Iron Byron, but not so for humans. Consequently, most teachers of golf will have their favourite means of getting their massage across to their pupils. Their methods may vary to a greater or a lesser degree, but they all aspire to teaching people to hit the ball with a solid, square strike. No matter what style of golf swing methods are taught, there will always be both constructive and negative criticism from other ‘experts’.
I can’t see anything wrong with teaching a golf swing which eliminates some of the angles and reduces moving parts to a minimum. I’ve seen motion pictures of the great Bobby Jones swinging a golf club and IMO he appeared to have more moving parts than the proverbial swiss watch. If Bobby presented himself to a ‘ modern’ swing coach with his loose looking swing, he would, no doubt, get straightened out and would finish up with a swing which reflected his coach’s idea of a ‘good, modern golf swing’. The role of a good coach must surely be to help people to achieve an acceptable level of competency. Few, if any, of the people who write to this forum are planning on joining the PGA Tour. Most of us are simply trying to get to a level which encourages us to play golf more often, and with less embarrassment. If Don’s teaching methods helps us to achieve that outcome, then how can the system be described as nonsense, crap and manure?
BTW. A quote from the highly respected golf teacher, John Jacobs: “whatever your ‘method’, your arms must SWING”. Mr Jacobs further states, inter alia: “you may think that you have a free arm swing, but I would suggest, sir or madam, that if your handicap is between 36 and 12, that you do not”. Mr Jacobs further states: “The arm action in golf has had surprisingly little attention. Millions of words have been written about hands, shoulders, hips, feet, but hardly a thought seems to have been given to the arms as such”
If Don is espousing a fast arm swing, then he is in tune with John Jacobs. Maybe, you are the odd man out on golf swing methodology, Mr tcb.
The Defence rests, your Honour.
If one wants to use C. Force and actually swing the arms faster, the kinematic sequence of the downswing has to be correct. This is the “starting and stopping” in the downswing to send energy/speed to the club head.
What I mean is that the downswing always starts with the legs moving toward the target…at some point the legs must slow down to send the energy further to the torso, which speeds up and slows down sending energy to the arms, which speeds up and slows down sending energy to the clubhead thus contacting the ball with maximum speed (Think Roller Derby…or “popping” a towel).
One is never going to be able and generate the amount of speed with only the arms compared to making the swing more efficient using the kinematic sequence. Try hitting balls on your knees or from a chair…you will always be able to swing your arms faster by using the aid of your body.
Plus, I have never seen a MLB pitcher pitch without first stepping toward home plate. Have you?
Now, as an instructor, I do agree that if players are not “stopping” in the downswing, there has to be another “feel” to make the swing more efficient. But as a principle, we can never forget the sequencing of the downswing if we want more speed.
Good Luck –
Steven
LOL. I love it. There are some people on here that really need to get a life…
hello don, your article about fast arms was of great interest to me, also keeping the body quiet in the hitting zone. I also play squash, i think both games are much alike. the right arm action is almost identical action, the grip, the body and balance when striking the ball, be sure to see the contact of club/racket with the ball so i am sure fast arm is equally important in the search of more power. would like your opinion.
best wishes & regards chuck
Hi Don, I can’t praise the videos I bought, I have had a bad back for some time, and the mitt and the Tree are far better than the voltarol and the codeine. So thanks I am hitting straighter thanks to the alignment advice and at least as far if not further. I need to understand the length issue of my driver a bit more, would moving my hands further down the shaft an indication of whether my current shaft is too long. P.S I didn’t receive the manual to download with my videos, could you sort that for me please. Good luck and thanks
Nick
Wow –
I am amazed at how rapidly the conversation migrates away from the actual subject to knit-picking the analogies and writing styles of Don Trahan. There appears to be a number of folks who are asking for help with their golf game, and then don’t like the information they recieve. I suppose that’s their right, and I wish them the best of luck in their search for advice that they like.
I’ve played for 50 years, have a 2 hdcp and have helped a whole lot of people with their game. I always tell them that I’m not going to change anything about their swing, then look at their alignment and ask them where they’re aimed. Rarely are they aimed where they think. Then we look at their set-up, ball position and grip. This is when they usually say, “I’ve always done it that way.” And of course they won’t improve until they use the right grip, set-up, alignment, etc. Almost always, the next subject is how to hit the ball further.
Okay, now I’ll stop. My point is that this is exactly what I’m seeing on this blog; the same progression. If everybody could have figured it out by now they would have. My personal “Aha” moment was keeping the club in fron of my body and out of the “SBG.” This requires a much more vertical swing than I have been accustomed to using but it wasn’t terribly difficult to change. Just that change made a significant difference in allowing me to hit more fairways and greens and having more chances at birdies. And that is the name of the game.
Look for your own “Aha” piece of information. You don’t need validation from anyone else just you. The spelling and the analogies are not always perfect, but the basic fundamentals are sound. Try focusing on those.
Yours in golf
Bruce
Hi the opening line should have read – Hi Don, I can’t praise the videos I bought “enough” just a PS to all you negative guys out there, Don has provided me with optimism in relation to my game as I have seen marked personal improvement. Anyone who studies psychology noit only sports psychology but clinical psychology will know that optimists live on average 8 years longer than pesemists and over achieve as oposed to pesemists who under achieve. So I may not be able to drive longer or straighter than some of you pesemists but it sure looks like i will live longer to enjoy what is I believe a truly great game.
Yours glass half full
Nick
To Mystical Matt
I’m glad you “outted” yourself from this forum. Strange is your claim that you reduce your handicap every three or four rounds. What are you then doing accessing this site? Strange!
Oh and nice shot you took at DJ Trahan, “.. I hear your son’s more of a hothead than most on the tour, so can’t speak for ‘the Deej.”
How disingenuous! Trash someone and then cover up your posterior by implying that it’s only hearsay and you really don’t know the individual. You gossiping pathetic little twit! You just made a direct statement that is a direct slam of DJ. If you possess a “pair” own up to that filthy remark. If not, then I’ve just done it for you..
The PPGS has turned the game around for literally thousands of golfers throughout the world. And this turnaround was due to the openness, the unbiased non prejudicial approach these individuals possessed when they took on the PPGS methodology.
You wrote “….What you preach doesn’t help me, personally, at all. I’ve lowered my handicap by changing equipment & watching You Tube videos in far greater a hurry than any of the advice or videos I’ve gotten from this site.”
Meandering Matt, go back and reenroll with the golfing masses who haven’t improved their collective handicap in the last 30 years. Don is doing something about that condition. You, on the other hand, retreat into the darkness of non enlightenment and despair.
That’s my three cents which is far more valuable than your two cents every time and in every way.
Don wrote:-
“The best example of centrifugal force is swinging a rock on a string. The faster the rock swings around the center the less the hand holding it moves. In swing terms, the hand is symbolic to the body and the rock and string symbolizes the club head, shaft and forward arm and hand of the golfer. This means, in simple terms, when making a PPG limited turn swing that you have to keep your torso quiet and you MUST SWING YOUR ARMS FASTER!”
I am looking at my body and trying to put that into perspective with Don’s words and it sounds like the pivot point of the swing is at my shoulders and everything below it down my arm and through the club shaft is the “string” and the clubhead is the “rock”.
Now assuming that everything below my torso is “quiet”, then the muscular power that is able to initiate and carry through the swinging of the “string” might come from my torso (including my back), shoulder(s), and/or upper arm(s).
The reasoning is because “string” has in itself no power and so I am assuming that for the most part my leading arm will be “quiet”.
I’m not sure what the role of the trailing arm, and/or shoulder, is but it seems logical that it must be a source of power that may(?) also act somewhat like “string” depending perhaps on where the clubhead is on the downswing.
Sounds like PPGS really wants to keep your back out of the picture because it’s trying to prevent it from being overstressed and so I’ll discard it as being a source of power.
Now, when you tie a “rock” to a “string” and you just hold on to the end of the “string” opposite to the “rock”; all you’ll get is a “rock hanging from a string”.
However, if you start to move your hand in a circular motion you will hopefully and eventually get a “rock at the end of a string being swung in a circle”. Note, that this required the “hand” to do something (work through certain muscles in your hand/wrist/etc.) to get the “rock” moving.
I think the big question seems to be “what specific muscles are used, and when they are to be used; to properly (and hopefully powerfully) power a PPGS swing”. I am sure that this fundamental question is something that is on the mind of many PPGS students and for which there is much confusion on the subject.
I purchased and read Ernest Jones’ “The Golf Swing”; and I have seen many references on the PPGS site to just “swing your arms faster”; but perhaps the problem is that sometimes it seems that the answers are too simplistic to be truly informative for those who don’t understand the perspective in which they are being answered from.
There are also many PPGS students who were practitioners of the “rotational” swing and they have not only had lots of experience with it, but may have paid good money for hands-on professional instruction, and/or had informal instruction provided by friends/relatives/etc.
I’m sorry Don, but although virtual instruction is inexpensive and via the Internet it can reach a vast audience, for some it can be a poor substitute for hands-on instruction especially when you have had someone in the past point out your “flaws” as you were committing them and providing immediate feedback as to how to correct them.
That too is why there have been many requests at this site for information about PPGS-certified instructors at various locales around the country.
Thank-you.
To Ramon
Your opinion is very well expressed and most eloquent.
I would like to add to your well crafted words that the true power in a swinging motion is found in the clubhead. Yes, the clubhead! Centrifugal force is the force, the power that is created on and by an object rotating around a central point.
In a true swinging motion, the clubhead is the power and the hands are that central point. And the hands remain the central point for the whole swing because they lead, give direction to, the rest of the body parts.
Hi NinerMike,
Hmmm… perhaps we could explore this a bit more.
Ernest Jones likens “leveraging” to “waggling” your club; and this is not what a true swing is about.
However, when someone says “hands” an uninformed person like myself looks at my own two and thinks “ah, maybe he means flicking the wrist”; which again is not what Ernest Jones meant.
So perhaps “swinging hands faster” might mean to be to take your empty hands and to put them together before yourself and pretend as if you were holding a club.
Make a PPGS swing with your empty hands. Swing those hands as fast as you can.
Do the same, but this time hold a club in your hands. Concentrate on the hands? The club just comes along for the ride?
If this is the correct description for “swing with your hands” then, IMHO, I would have to believe that I am using mostly shoulder and upper arm muscles to get my arms to swing my hands faster. Also, grip must play a very important part because you are trying to overcome the clubhead’s mass which started out in an “at rest” state; and will very likely result in “lag” because of trying to overcome this state (i.e. to accelerate the clubhead); an effect which is very evident when you are trying to twirl a rock-on-a-string.
Therefore, to swing faster you would have to work on strengthening the shoulder and upper-arm muscles especially in the direction of your downswing.
Additionally, I’ve also noticed in myself that I am using my forearm muscles, and whatever muscles influence the wrist, to maintain control and the angular relationship with the club that was created at my initial address.
Therefore, it might seem that someone with upper-body strength and strong arms will probably be able to swing the club faster as in “swing your hands faster”. This is a good thing especially if you can keep your back “quiet” too.
Let me know what you think.
Thank-you
Amazing! I have read the second article and everything just make so much sense. Look forward to the rest.
Ramon, I agree about getting personal instruction as I have been working under a PGA pro for going on 2 years, I know when I came to him, I was about ready to give up the game and he has helped me to understand the golf swing to a point that I was able to quickly adapt to Dons PPGS, without the knowledge he provided me, I am sure I would not have been successful so quickly. I did not improve my handicap during all that time but I was able to enjoy the game again and I actually won a few closest to the pins and placed in some tournaments.
He was working with me on a rotational swing and it was my latest lesson that really got me to thinking I was in trouble because he wanted me to work on keeping my hips very still and turning my left shoulder beyond my belt buckle as this is the source of power that is created by Tiger himself but that is quite a strain on a body even for someone who is flexible like me and so I am greatful for my local pro but I am also greatful for what Don has shown me as it works well for me so Im not burning any bridges as I plan on keeping my local pro on retainer.
I hope to be a teacher myself someday and I know that the heart of a good teacher is to help their student/s improve in what has got to be the most elusive game ever invented.
Happy Golfing
Ken
–changing the subject—–What do you think of the Heard Super Swing?–and doesn’t it relate to your swing teachings?
To Ramon
Thoughts…
Ernest Jones was very clear about always stating that a pure swing motion is enacted when the hands swing the “CLUBHEAD!” It’s the clubhead that hits the ball and it is the clubhead that applies the power through the application of force centrifugally created.
To gain maximum distance, Jones would be against moving the hands faster. He would be an advocate of moving, swinging the clubhead faster.
Your point is well made about the role of the forearms. When you think about it, a ping pong player doesn’t wrist the paddle at the ball, he uses his forearm to make that explosive action. A baseball player uses his forearms to propel the bat through the hitting zone, not his wrists. And as well as in golf, it’s the forearms that provide the twisting action of the arms and the wrists during the swing. And the forearms, of course, receive their direction from the swinging action of the clubhead. The forearms cause, relegate, the wrists to a very secondary role when the club head strikes the ball.
Your reaction?
Don,
Hello,
My irons have improved nicely with the Peak Performance Golf Swing. My Handicap is coming down, but I have more trouble with the woods, especially fairway shots. My driver is slowly improving, but not as fast as the irons. I have been practicing and playing the new method for one month.
Any helpful comments would be appreciated.
Thanks, from a physical therapists who treats a lot of golfers with back pain.
Keith
Hi NinerMike,
I agree with your first and second paragraphs.
I also believe that as unique individuals of differing minds and physiques we might be seeing the same things but interpreting them differently.
I don’t think that even Ernest Jones was able to put his thoughts to paper in way that was unbiased by personal experience and based purely on scientific experimentation.
For me, reading Ernest Jones’ book has helped me understand the importance of:-
1. Not flicking your wrist to try to hit the ball.
2. A properly executed swing will allow your entire body to experience a sense of being in balance from start to finish.
3. You need to gain a sense of feel through your hands (via thumbs and forefingers) as to where your clubhead is located in space, especially while it is in motion.
Maybe it’s up to some other PPGS student, if anyone’s interested, to better explain the intricate and detailed mechanics of how to speed up your forearm.
Meanwhile, I’ll keep on practicing and if I catch a moment of additional understanding I will be sure to share it with everyone.
Thank-you.
To Ramon.
I thoroughly enjoyed your fine and accurate response to my response. Bravo!
But I will continue to maintain, to attain the maximum speed and the most powerful release of your forearms, you must increase the centrifugal force being accepted and placed upon the clubhead. The best way to facilitate that increase in force(and the best way to activate all the body parts to support that increased speed) is by swinging the clubhead faster.
And to use Ernest Jones as the ultimate mentor in this venture towards increased forearm speed, you can make the clubhead faster by using your hands to initiate a pure swinging motion.
And yes, you can move the club and the clubhead as fast as you are able providing a pure swing motion is never compromised by any introduction of leverage.
Hey NinerMike…nice name, your mommy give you that? By the way, did I hear a niner in there? -Tommy Boy. Well it’s oh-so mysterious Matt back one last time although I’m not sure what makes my name so mysterious. Since you seem to act as though you’re ‘the Deej’s’ personal, Internet body guard, here’s a direct quote from the New York Post for you to chew on, along with a link for you to read it yourself (plus, I wouldn’t want to take credit for what I didn’t say and I learned to site sources in college and all, you know, like the Tommy Boy line you stole your pre-name from):
“D.J. Trahan, a noted hothead on the golf course, broke his putter during the second round and putted the rest of the way with his driver. He stands at 7-over for the tournament.”
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/golf/item_iO2c0tk5k7z9FgTpT5ke8L
How’s that for a “filthy remark” eh, Niner (if that is your real name)?
That and I’ve heard the same from 2 different scratch golfers (personal friends) that follow the tour a lot closer than I while maintaining their PGA Instructor cards.
Oh, like your comment to tcb BTW: “To tcb – aka “Totally Condescending Butthead,”…” fits perfectly in with your hypocritical style. Might want to try and grow a pair yourself.
Despite all that and yes, it’s great how you literally live on here with your 6 posts & counting (I’m sure you’ll have to respond to this one, so I’ll just count you for 7), little to none of what you said addresses the main point of my statement and you contradict yourself in acting as hot headed as the son of Mr. Misspelled himself in the process.
Anyway, DJ himself generally does not use this golf swing in the manner it is shown on online videos & written about in these, dare I say, articles. He may have a compact swing for a larger fellow but he certainly doesn’t just “swing arms faster” with a quiet body & supposedly limiting the use of large muscles in the swing. I fully eliminated my slice & quit digging divots 6″ behind the ball by improving my swing using the exact opposite logic of “swing arms faster.” If that works for you, good luck. To each their own.
First, you acknowledge that, as stated, I lower my handicap at this stage every 3-4 rounds & wonder why I went to this site for the first time in nearly 2 months after reading one of the more absurd titles in the subject line of one of 44 or more unread PPGS e-mails that barraged my inbox since signing up. I absolutely disagree with this particular article, which prompted me to end my subscription, although, now I’m somewhat regretting it due to the semi-comical genius that inspires me to laugh hard enough to allow myself to avoid sit-ups on the rare day I risk clicking on the link to arrive here.
Anyway, despite recognizing my true statement about lowering my score due to soaking in & frequently seeking legitimate golf knowledge from those who know how to instruct, which is what led me to find this site in the first place (much to my dismay in the end), you go on to make a statement as idiotic as “go back and reenroll with the golfing masses who haven’t improved their collective handicap in the last 30 years.” So, let me get this straight, I lower my scores by not using virtually any portion of the infamous PPGS swing, instead finding better suiting instruction almost anywhere else I turn but I’m joining those who can’t improve their handicap? Is it even possible for you to end with a bigger contradiction, you oxymoron, you?
Once I finished reading some of your misaligned comments, I’m actually wondering if your reference to lowering your handicap actually means you recently threw down some undersized dubs on your wheelchair, in which case I can almost begin to understand why you would spend so much time posting on here…then again, your 3 cent comment may imply a possible mental disability, in which case, I’m impressed that at least you can spell fairly well. In fact, your final 3 cent line almost keeps up with Kristen Wiig’s character on SNL. You’ve obviously studied the Penelope sketches on SNL when you occasionally take a break from the PPGS plethora-posting. With a line as absurd as that ending, I thoroughly believe that she is your idol whether you know it or not, in fact it’s quite possible that your handicap is so low that it actually heals others handicaps & ends worldwide disability. And yet, Penelope would probably still out-golf you, despite your super-powered PPGS swing. I’ll stick to the swing that works. My own.
Yo Matt
Let’s get it on!
I challenge you to a one on one at a course of your choice in Vegas. Of course, with all of your contacts, I expect you to pick up the green fees and lunch.
The contest will be the PPGS system versus your rotary method. The wager will be made face to face — winner takes all including your unmitigated praise of the PPGS! And to prevent you feeling the possibility of my blindsiding you, your handicap, and only your handicap, will be allowed to apply to your round.
If you acccept the challenge, there will be one more condition that you will accept — a condition easily fulfilled by any man of character who has a pair!
Namaste
I’m driving the ball much better now using your swing technique but continue to “chili dip” the all important approach shots! what can i do to stop wasting good drives?
There are just some things that get said on these forums that I wonder if were really thought out. First, speed? Has little to do with the body? Perhaps in the golf swing but having been a ball player before injury ended my playing days, I can surely tell you that speed and distance of a throw definately has a lot to do with the body. Try standing flat footed and mover your arm as fast as you want and throw the ball. Now, rare back with your weight on the back foot and now throw the ball as hard as you can while letting the weight transfer to the front foot. You tell me which ball goes further. Fast pitch softball works the same way. Wind up as hard and fast as you can and don’t step towards home as you release and see just how hard you can throw the ball. Same thing is true in the PPGS swing. If you managed to keep your body perfectly still you’d not hit the ball futher than by loading on the right and then the weight moves to the left as the arms swing down in front and then back up. It is true though that to gain more distance you have to allow the arms to swing faster just like you were twirling a rock on the string.
Next, Ninermike, I’m still befuddled as to why you stick to the starting the swing with the hands statement. I gave you page and paragraph and while I admit that Jones used those words in the beginning of one paragraph he later went on to say that the club is an extension of the shoulder and arm. The left hand is just in the middle. It controls direction. It does not make the swing. If that was the case then you could just move your hands,keep the arms still, and make a swing. You obviously can’t do that. However, I can move my shoulder and arm and keep the hands still and I can make a swing. That is exactly what happens. If you move the hands at all when initiating a swing without the arms moving the hands, you have added leverage.
Now, I know you have your “following’ so to speak on here and aren’t likely to back down from your statements but the logic is not on your side in this case. The roll of the hands in the swing is like that of a rudder on a boat, it guides the club head and directs the path. The hands are also sensors that give us feedback of what is happening during the swing and impact.
I bow to you and I am done!
To j Griffin
No need to STOP! We’ve just started!
Your letter to me was somewhat strange and somewhat strained! You came across almost threatened!? You appear threatened when someone disagrees or feels their emphasis is more correct than yours. Relax! We are not in any kind of intellectual war with one another. But we are in a topic of conversation that has included debate for over 500 years! Yes, the precedent for insightful debate was established long, long ago!
Don’t run off. Enjoy and rejoice in the exaltation of spirited discourse.
Now, I do not seek nor have a “following.” I do seek, nevertheless, knowledge and I do find in a give and take conversational event such as ours, much can be learned. And please don’t bow to me. Not cool! I trust and react to you as an equal.
The journey towards mutual enlightenment continues…
You wrote “…the roll of the hands in the swing is like that of a rudder on a boat, it guides the club head and directs the path. The hands are also sensors that give us feedback of what is happening during the swing and impact.”
Yes, yes, and yes! You statement is absolutely and outstandingly correct. I wish I could have recorded my words to say what your words conveyed so endearingly well! In a pure swing motion, the hands relay the message as to what the other parts of the body are instinctively responsible — what specific duties they are to perform. I’m in complete agreement with you! You go boy!
Now Griffin, despite your claim, I’m still waiting for the elusive page and paragraph citation whereby you claim Jones states the swing is initiated by the left shoulder and arm. You can’t send that to me because it simply doesn’t exist!
And what also doesn’t exist in the Jones’ methodology is your statement “…The left hand is just in the middle. It controls direction. It does not make the swing.” Jones never mentions the usage of the left hand in the swing. But he does emphatically state that both hands together make the swing of the clubhead.
You then continued, “…If that was the case then you could just move your hands, keep the arms still, and make a swing. You obviously can’t do that.”
That isn’t what Jones said and that isn’t what you said in your statement on the hands I so lavishly praised! This last statement makes no sense and again, doesn’t back up Jones nor yourself! To initiate a swing by using just your hands, it automatically affirms that the arms and the clubshaft and finally the clubhead all follow in unison.
You wrote, “..That is exactly what happens. If you move the hands at all when initiating a swing without the arms moving the hands, you have added leverage.” Yes, of course. And yes, that is precisely why Jones created his famous knife and handkerchief exercise to illustrate what a pure swing motion is all about as opposed to a leveraged action. I still think, Griffin, you don’t quite understand how to do this exercise. If that is true, let me know and I will be happy to give a most humble explanation. LoL!
Griffin, you know, I wonder. Maybe you’re reading an instructional book written by a different Ernest Jones? Possible?
Okay Griffin! Bring it!
To Griffin
To J Griffin
Regarding your excellent expose of the source of “speed.” Yes, the large muscles of the body (especially the legs) are critical components to making a fast movement with the arms and the hands. But the final determiner of what makes the ball, or the bat, or the club move to its fastest level is..………… the hands and the forearms attached to them!
Oh no, here I go again. Now Griffin, pick yourself off the floor and consider this hypothesis. There are baseball pitchers who possess in their physiology stronger legs, bigger shoulders, and better form than the great Nolan Ryan. But they will never, ever throw a baseball harder or faster than the “Ryan Express’ because he owned a genetically created superior right arm. An arm that was simply stronger in the bicep, the forearm, and in the wrist and hand. In the final analysis, what separated him from all the rest was the massively superior small muscles of his body in contrast, or in opposition to, the small muscles of the superior physical specimens he competed against.
While I do enjoy good debate, I think we are using space on PPGS that perhaps wasn’t indeeded for such. But I did answer the page reference number on the other forum where we originally started the discussinon. Again, I’m not at the shop and this is from memory. It was the chapter on the swing and I believe page 47 paragraph 3 through page 48 paragraph 2. I have the same book but in paperback, Ernest Jones “Just swing the clubhead”. I believe you will see he is addressing exactly what movement starts the back swing. He says for right handers, it’s the left hand. But on page 48 he goes on to say that the hands are an extension of the arm and shoulder. I’m not saying the swing isn’t made using hands. That would be absurd. But, I am saying that the first movement in the back swing is not done with the hands. If it is, then leverage is created. The first movement begins with a turning of the left shoulder which moves the arm, which moves the hands, which moves the shaft, which moves the club head. The arms are the engine and the hands are the steering wheel.
I can do the knife drill quite well, thank you. To accomplish it the hands have to remain quite passive. The shoulders and arms create the arc. You could argue that the hands turn to give the direction but even then I’d take issue that it’s not the hands that actuall turn, it’s a rotation of the forearms that move the hands and not the hands moving the forearms.
As for the ball and speed comments. Nor argument there. We know that we are not all created equal in some respects. My comment was mainly to Bob wayyyyy up above that said the body had nothing to do with speed and that just ain’t right.
That isn’t what Jones said and that isn’t what you said in your statement on the hands I so lavishly praised! This last statement makes no sense and again, doesn’t back up Jones nor yourself! To initiate a swing by using just your hands, it automatically affirms that the arms and the clubshaft and finally the clubhead all follow in unison.
You wrote, “..That is exactly what happens. If you move the hands at all when initiating a swing without the arms moving the hands, you have added leverage.” Yes, of course. And yes, that is precisely why Jones created his famous knife and handkerchief exercise to illustrate what a pure swing motion is all about as opposed to a leveraged action.
The above is copied from your last post. In the last sentence in first paragraph you say to initiate the swing by using the hands. Second paragraph you quote me where I say you move the arms to move the hand and that I’m correct. Both statements can’t be true!
The correct first motion of the back swing is left should starts the turn and in sequence the rest move with it. You can’t just start in the middle with the hands as you have agreed if done that way it creates leverage. So, it seems to me that we are in escense saying the same thing.
To Griffin
Hey, it’s great to trade ideas and interpretations with you. Bravo! And no, I respectively disagree. We are using space on this PPGS forum productively!
The foundation of the Ernest Jones methodology, what he claims as the absolute universal imperative, that in order to make a pure swing motion, one must “Swing the clubhead with your hands.”
Now Griffon, I will acknowledge that you have paraphrased Jones’ words somewhat accurately but you have not used the quotes in context. They are taken out of context and therefore have made you misinterpret what he is saying vis e vis that universal imperative.
Jones did state on Page 47, “..In producing a swing, the contact at the end of the medium, which transmit’s the power to whatever is being swung, initiates and guides the action. …in the case of a the right-handed golfer, the left hand is at the end of the shaft, and therefore “initiates and directs” (my quotation marks) the movement. In the very next sentence he states, “Understand that golf is neither a right-handed nor a left-handed game, but a two handed one. Otherwise we would play it with either one hand or the other, as we do in tennis.” (Note: The two handed backhand wasn’t utilized in his day.).
To continue his philosophy about the parts of the body and their submission to the control and guidance of the hands, on page 48 Ernest concludes, “”In a sense, the shaft of the club is an extension of the left arm, connecting the clubhead with the left shoulder, or at least forming the line between the two, used in transmitting the power from its source in the body to the clubhead. The hand, being the extremity of sensitivity in this power line, acquires and transmit’s the feel of the club head. The sensation, felt in the hands, of what is being done with the clubhead, is the guide by which conscious effort should be directed. All other physical actions on the part of the body should follow as responsive movement.” Note: On the rest of the page and on page 49, he describes his famous exercise that teaches a true, pure swinging motion.
Griffin, when you state “…I am saying that the first movement in the back swing is not done with the hands. If it is, then leverage is created. The first movement begins with a turning of the left shoulder which moves the arm, which moves the hands, which moves the shaft, which moves the club head. The arms are the engine and the hands are the steering wheel.” Jones would vehemently disagree.
Now, I’m not saying you are wrong in your observation of your own swing motion. I’m not saying you can’t make a righteous swing believing as you do. Hey, its right for you! I can support that! But no, absolutely not! In the Jones system it’s the hands, not the left shoulder, which make the first movement. Yes, the hands are the steering wheel which drive the whole body engine — and they do this by accepting and redirecting the whole body power. Or to continue the automobile analogy, without the hands putting in that ignition key, nothing gets started!
An aside: Griffin, if you discern leverage from utilizing Ernest’s exercise, then I have to repeat, you are not employing the exercise as Jones so instructed. When Jones teaches the knife and handkerchief exercise, he uses the hand to initiate the swinging action having the knife and the kerchief and the hand all flowing in the same direction. And no, the hands are never “passive” in the Jones system! And yes, the forearms come into importance as soon as the hands transmit, direct, the feeling of the swing to their attention. There’s no twist of the wrist here. This is how he taught the difference between cntrifugal force and leverage. Again, his exercise was an example of centrifugal force, not leverage.
And once again,you don’t feel the swing with your forearms. In order for them to work, you must first “feel” with the hands which are the only body part connected to the club.
Hey, have a great weekend and “Go 49ers!”
Don,
Neither you or anyone else has made mention of what one does that who is extremely barrel- chested. That physical condition, when bending forward from the waist 30deg., hanging the arms straight down keeps the upper arms connected to the chest on the take away and forward swing. The hands are very close to the thighs and cannot swing in the PPGS method because of this restriction. Leaning forward far enough to clear my chest with my upper arms, is a position I cannot maintain due to weak legs. I’m 80yrs, old with small hands, weak arms, 6ft, 220lbs, thick trunk.
Can you please help.
Are you by any chance familiar with Andy Brown and his web based “New Four magic Moves To Winning Golf”? If so,. I would be interested in your take as to how does his Mo for the golf swing compare to yours? Thanks!
Bud
i will be 80 years old in 2 weeks—-3 years ago i had to give up golf and bowling due to knee pain—–then i had both knees replaced—it was like being born again————–here’s my problem—–i have been working on moe norman’s swing from the graves golfing school—not much success—-now i’ve discovered PPGS—-MOST OF YOUR ADVICE IS THE EXACT OPPOSITE——-i cannot travel—–can i find instruction in or near michigan? myron zerger
Ok, it’s come down to this. Tell me how you can possibly initiate the swing by first moving the hands without creating an angle that wasn’t there to begin with? From what you are saying, the hands move first, then the arms follow, and then the shoulder. I whole heartedly disagree. I can do the knife drill very well in fact. The way I start it swing is to let it hand and start small movements like a pendulum. In fact, Jones makes many references to the pendulum. So, if the initial movement is such, then something in the middle of the medium could not have given impetus to the movement. So, tell me please, how do you start the knife moving? I still see this as a matter of semantics. I think what if boils down to is what “sense” you have of what starts things. From what I read it seems that your sense is the hands move, not break, but move and then the arms follow. If that works for you, fine. I think of it the other way. Regardless, I bet we both have the same result. What say you?
To Griffin
Our discussion continued…
You wrote “From what I read it seems that your sense is the hands move, not break, but move and then the arms follow. If that works for you, fine.”
Yes, I agree with your estimate. But realize, this idea is not mine! It all belongs to Ernest Jones. My role in this discussion is not to advance any theory of my own. It’s to clarify the very specific language Jones uses to very specifically advance his own theory on the fundamentals of a swinging motion. Jones (and the Surge) is my mentor. The cause for my effective swing motion is the result of his instruction.
And you are right, it is about semantics — Jones’ own versus the rest of the golfing world. And the only master teacher in the country who teaches the Jones’ methodology, who best exemplifies its characteristics, is the most faithful to the strict interpretation of Ernest, is Artie Frankel of Frankel Golf, Florida.
You espoused, “Tell me how you can possibly initiate the swing by first moving the hands without creating an angle that wasn’t there to begin with? From what you are saying, the hands move first, then the arms follow, and then the shoulder. “
Right! There is no angle to begin with and Jones’ one and only classic exercise does not allow for any angles when initiating the hands movement of the clubhead. Why? Because the hands and the arms and the clubshaft and the clubhead all start in unison — all in the same direction! You can’t swing the kerchief/knife with the clubshaft as he proposes, any other way!
You “…Jones makes many references to the pendulum. So, if the initial movement is such, then something in the middle of the medium could not have given impetus to the movement. So, tell me please, how do you start the knife moving?”
Great question Griffin! According to Jones, what is in the “middle of the medium” are the hands. Jones uses the term pendulum to exemplify the “to and fro” action of the clubhead in the pure swing action. In golf, the only time a true pendulum action occurs is in the case of the long putter. In this action, one hand is affixed to the sternum and one hand to the club. The bottom hand initiates the movement (everything in unison going in one direction), and the top hand establishes the fixed place of the pendulum action. In the Jones’ approach, the “middle of the medium” are the hands and it is they that start the swinging action of the knife.
Griffin, if for you it’s the left shoulder moving everthing, fine! That has never worked for me and, thanks to the very purposeful and very particular insight of Jones, I now feel my swing instinctively with my hands. And it is the hands, for me, that very definitely initiate the first movement of everything.
And Griffin, you said it yourself, “…I can do the knife drill very well in fact. The way I start it swing is to let it hand and start small movements like a pendulum.” Yes, yes, yes! And from those small movements the knife and the club head are sent flying into space!
Go 49ers!
One final note. Here is why I don’t think the way it is explained by Jones in his verbage is the “best” for teaching purposes. I see plenty of my students, when they first start, make the first movement of the golf club with their hands and that is a rotation of the hands clockwise and cocking of the wrists at the same time. Then the arms follow milli seconds later. The result is a very inside swing and laid off position. So, if you tell students to start the swing with their hands you can get this result. However, I comprehend what Jones was saying. I just don’t like the way it was said. I think the better way to have said it when asked what initiates the backswing instead of the left hand would have been that the left side (hand, arm, shoulder) moves in unison maintaining the address position, i.e. no angles. So many people start the club back by “fliping” the hands. They started with their hands and the whole point of this dialogue was to get you to agree that it’s not a flip motion which is moving the hands first. Rather, everything moves in unison. Obviously the whole part of the equation that gives feedback is the hands. It is also the source of direction provided that the backswing is done properly. Your thought process is that you start your hands back back but physiologically they can’t move but two ways independent of being moved by the arms. The hand can move back and forth as in a wave or side to side as in cocking your wrists. This is why I disagree with the percise wording. But, in your mind, it’s the hand that moves, OK with me, but it’s the large muscles of the arm that start the movement, not the small muscles of the hand. We can debate the issue until the cows come home but anatomy and physiology is on my side when it comes to what actually does move in a proper swing. As far as what one perceives, that is up to the individual. Now, you can argue with me, well not argue, but debate, but science is not altered by opinion. I’m sure you’ll respond and I’ve enjoyed the banter but this is the last post for me on the subject so you’ll have the last word but I’ve unload the big guns and pulled out the trump card with the science angle. Have a great week and a most enjoyable weekend!
to J. Griffin and NinerMike:
I have enjoyed your dialogue on hands vs shoulders — and what starts the swing.
However, I have a small dis-agreement with both of you — for me the first “feel” or “sensation” in the backswing is a small push from the area of the forward (left) big toe/foot arch (the “bump” ) — followed immediately by a rotation of club,hands, arms shoulders as a UNIT — “into the mitt and up the tree”.
The downswing is then started by a small push (forward “bump”) from the rear (left) foot, followed immediately by the shoulders, arms, hands and club descending as a UNIT initally. Of course in the hitting area the “hands take over” and deliver a forecful blow to the ball.
Maybe it “feels” different to other people — perphaps my “foot sensations” are a timing mechanism — but I do hit the ball STRAIGHT. Me and Moe Norman, Baby!!
Distance is another matter though :<(( I strongly suspect I need to follow SURGES advice and "gett fitted" — it is probably time to change from stiff graphite shafts on my "woods" (metals ?) to at least regular or maybe senior. My irons are regular flex steel shafts, and they seem to still work great
Keep hitting them straight !!
Amos
Amos,
It is most definately a good idea to get fitted. If you want to tell me your locale’, I’ll be happy to recommend a certified fitter in your area. I am a master fitter/builder and have contacts throughout the world.
Next deals with the discussion that you’ve read from Ninermike and myself. The dialogue actually started on a previous post and centered around Ernest Jones and the part the hands play in the swing. You are referring to your “key” that initiates your action. We each have a key individually specifc that helps us “pull the trigger”. Some do a forward press with the hands, some the right knee, but yours is the most unique that I’ve come across. Very interesting concept and one that certainly doesn’t cause any problems in creating angles or actions that have to be “undone”. Have a great Thanksgiving!
Griffin
No, no. no. This can’t be your last post. We’re just getting started. LoL!
Thanks for bringing your “big guns“ and your Donald “trump card!“ As they say in the world poker championships, “I’m all in!”
Oh and I don’t need to have the final word. I do need, in the spirit of competitive debate, to have you see and agree with Ernest Jones. If you can’t, then so be it! I’m good to go!
You: “…the whole point of this dialogue was to get you to agree that it’s not a flip motion which is moving the hands first. Rather, everything moves in unison. …Your thought process is that you start your hands back but physiologically they can’t move but two ways independent of being moved by the arms. The hand can move back and forth as in a wave or side to side as in cocking your wrists.”
Me: I don’t disagree and never have about everything moving in unison. That fact is a fundamental in the Jones‘ system. And guess what? In the Jones’ system science remains very definitely on his side by this scientific fact. You very definitely can move your hands without “flipping them” and without cocking them or without twisting them. The hands can move the arms without the slightest hint of a break or change in angle. Try it right now. Move the hands back and forth and the arms (as well as the club) will follow along without any change of angle until the centrifugally influenced clubhead causes the wrists to hinge. It works and it works as Jones intended — no leverage, no early wrist break, no flipping, — just a swing!
Griffin, please take note: When both ends of the club move in the same direction as the result of the hands (moving and swinging), there absolutely can be no break in the wrists — not even one degree! A break or turn or twist would disallow the arms and club traveling one way in unison! This is what Jones disclosed and this is what exactly happens in his system — scientifically and physiologically!
As regards the notion “…Your thought process is that you start your hands back but physiologically they can’t move but two ways independent of being moved by the arms.“ I think I just proved to you that it is definitely physiological possible to keep the hands “from breaking back and forth” by keeping them still and allowing them to pull the arms in a unified concerted action. And about your notoin of the arm moving the hand and not the other way around. Shoot your thumb out to catch a ride from a passing car. It’s the arm that follows the action of the thumb — not the arm moving and directing the thumb.
Griffin, it’s like this. Before my introduction to the Ernest Jones’ swing, for years I would always camp out at the driving range to watch the pros practice before a PGA event. I concentrated on everything including their shoulder turn, their dynamic balance, their application of the legs, their power and accuracy. The same features my instructors emphasized. But as I applied these moves,inconsistency always returned to my own swing. As I continued to watch the pros, tournament after tournament, I consciously was always taken by and lead to what appeared to me the almighty presence of “educated hands.” Again always, after meticulously checking out the pros’ forms, I was always drawn to the PHD hands they displayed!
There were examples in my sports life that always reminded me of, kept me focused, on the hands. I relied on the hands to guide my basketball play, my tennis, my bowling, my baseball pitching. But I had a hell of a time educating my hands to feel the swing as I knew the way the pros did. And then I discovered Jones who taught me how to educate my hands — just like the pros. Yes, it’s the small muscles of the bowler, the tennis player, the pitcher, the basketball athlete — hell, the shot putter, that send off, control, initiate their athletic moves. No athlete “consciously” relies on his large muscles to perform. But all athletes very consciously rely upon the “feel“ they experience when they pick up a bat, a ball, or a golf club. Again and again I submit, in all sports that rely on a ball or implement to throw or a object to swing. it’s the small muscles that relay to the large muscles what they instinctively need to do. Griffin, now that’s physiology confirming the scientific role of small muscle dominance in sport.
Yes it is true. Large muscles, in the last analysis, ultimately decide the success of an athletic action. But they are powerless, impotent, without the athlete “feeling it” with his/her hands. Hey, that would even include love making!
Griffin, when Joe Montana was about to throw one of his magnificent passes, he never concentrated on his feet or his shoulder or his balance. He was concentrating on the target by feeling that ball with his hands. That’s all he felt! And he used that feeling in his hands to draw the ball back for a pass. And in that action, the large muscles took their command, their guidance, their direction from his “educated” hand. Now that is what happened physiologically. Again, Montana never made a conscious move with his large muscles — he initiated all of his movement with the smallest of muscles.
Griffin, this is not, as you charged, opinion altering science. This is science confirming the physical application all athletes entertain, They feel the motion in their small muscle hands first, while at the same time “unconsciously and subconsciously” making their large muscles perform. The small muscle application is what I have always felt and seen in the golf swing. And this scientific fact has been forever confirmed by Joe Montana, myself, and Ernest Jones..
Amen.
Milt,
Let me see if I can help. FIrst, with the limitations that you mentioned with age and physical ability, I would venture to say that you are not able to make a shoulder rotation anyway. I would guess that you swing in a pretty much upright position. You more than likely don’t do much in the way of weight transfer. You probably also let the left arm collapse a bit in the swing as opposed to just a slight bend. An adaption of the PPGS swing should be ideal for you. Since your legs and arms are weak, we’ll minimize the spine tilt and bend. As much as possible would be the best you’ve got. From there, the rotation of the left shoulder to whatever amount that you can becomes the goal. I’m pretty sure that you’ll have trouble even getting to 70*. So, turn as much as you can. Key thing to do is when you turn, lift the club to the highest point that you can comfortably will not folding the left arm. From there, let the club drop and swing through the ball and concentrate on the club head traveling down the target line and then back up. You have to “fight” the tendency for you to swing around yourself and to the left. I hope this will help and if you need any further information or I have made an error in assumptions, let me know.
To Milt
And I would add to Griffin’s excellent advice, that what he or Don suggests regarding all the details, parts, and positions regarding the PPGS, none of it can work without a pure swinging motion of the hands upon the clubhead.
I refer you to the fabulous post Don placed on this forum entitled “Words from Warren.”
Read over and over Warren’s magnificent insight. Then read the comments supporting his clarification on the swing. Once you establish a pure swing motion, entrusting the hands to move the clubhead, the PPGS will be yours forever. Anything else, your forever analysis will cause a permanent swing threatening paralysis.
Namaste and Happy Thanksgiving.
I had a scientic reply all done and I can’t post it for some reason.
The gist was a list of muscles starting at the should and what they move. Nowhere did we find muscles of the hand making a movement other than manipulation. The arms move the hand. The hands “steer” the club head. That’s it.
Ninermike:
you….pure swinging motion of the hands upon the clubhead.
Do you mean this? If so, we totatlly agree!!!! It is a swinging motion of the hands which are holding the club.
Griffin
“…you….pure swinging motion of the hands upon the clubhead.
Do you mean this? If so, we totatlly agree!!!! It is a swinging motion of the hands which are holding the club.”
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That’s what Ernest and I have been saying on all of these posts!
You: The arms move the hand. The hands “steer” the club head.
Jones and me: On the backswing,the hands swing (not steer) the clubhead and the arms follow accordingly. On the forward swing, the hands swing the clubhead and the arms follow accordinhgly (along with the rest of the body parts).
I refer you to my hitching a ride with the thumb. The thumb shoots out giving the arm its direction. The arm doesn’t shoot out giving the thumb direction!
Please reread what I said about all the other athletes performing their athletic actions. They feel through their hands and because of this the hands incite the movement of all of the larger muscles. Again and again, physiologically speaking, the hands are the leaders prompting the large muscles to action.
The body fuctions because of brain waves In athletic actions as I so described, the hands take over from the brain. That’s called instinctive reaction. And then the hands impart this instinctive reaction to the other larger muscles.
No athlete, as I described, ever thinks about the large muscles when performing an athletic action. They don’t feel with those large muscles. But they feel, initiate the whole athletic action through their hands.
Again, you are referring to the thought process. I refer to the physical process. And the thumb can not move without the brain first moving the muscle in the arm. The brain can not move the hand without first moving shoulder, arm, and then hand. The hands hold the club, they guide the club, they send feedback but without the muscles of the shoulder and pecs moving the arms, the hands would stay right where they are. You can not deny this. The muscles of the hand don’t move the arms.
To : J. Griffin:
I am in the Phoeni Az area, Chandler to be specific. I woul appreciate the name of a qualified club fitter in the Chandler/Mesa/South Phoenxi area.
I will probably NOT go for a fitting until around Easter — I have a weak left ankle that is slowly mending — it should be at about 98% byt then. Currently it limits my forward weight shift and follow through — so a “perfect” club now — would probably not be perfect then.
I tend to view the brain as similar to a symphony orchestra conductor — it directs various muscle groups to do their part at the righr time — and senses (mainly through the hands, I believe) when all is well — and when things fo wrong also. Hence the oft quoted “14 minor corrections on the downswing” to try to save a bad swing.
However I also tend to agree with NinerMike in the importance of the hands for “feel” or “touch”. But I believe the hands have to work in coordination with the other muscles — not as the “leader” or “instigator” of all things.
I have the Jones book — and am currenlty reading it — about half way through it now
Continue the discusion. Please!
Amos
Amos,
Bill Owen, Linkmaster Golf, Surprise AZ. 509-899-5558
Let me clarify a point here. I, too, agree that the hands are the instruments of “touch” and “feel”. After all they are our only link to the golf club. The hands give the brain feed back as to results, where the club is in the swing, etc,, etc.. What they do not do is work independantly of the rest of the body. We as teachers even talk about supanation and pronation of the hands but in actuality it’s a rotation of the forearms that produce the results. However, our sensation is that we moved the hands to accomplish this.
My contention is this: when you tell a golfer to start a back swing with his hands he inevitably breaks the hands. If you tell him to start the back swing by turning the left should and letting the left arm move the club, it stays in one piece. WOW, now there’s a term we had brought in yet. The triangle stays in place. Just as doing the knife drill from Jones’ book shows, you have to let the arms swing and the forearms have to rotate for the drill to be successful so here is where the statement comes in like I mentioned above, the hands made the movement. They didn’t. It was the forearms.
It comes back to semantics again. Ninermike’s thought process is move his hands but he knows to keep the wrist angle straight. My thought process is turn the left should and again, keep every in a straight line. While we are consciously thinking two different ways, the brain still moves the same muscles in the same way so the end result is the same. That is exactly how we can think two different ways but both do the knife drill with success. I hadn’t thrown this out yet and now is probably a good time. When you take a step, does the foot move the leg or the leg move the foot. What is the thought process. To me, the thought is leg flex and take a step. Others probably think foot, take a step, and the leg responds. Two seperate ways of thinking but the results is the same. Thus is the conversation with Ninermike. In terms of types of golfers, Ninermike would be a “feel” player where I’m more of “mechanics” player until it gets to the short game and then brother, it’s all about “feel”. But, that “feel” comes from experience and learning what effort it takes to produce a desired results.
Have a great Thanksgiving!
Griffin
I think we are arriving at a consensus here. But first some greatly needed decalcification.
I never ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever ,ever, ever, ever, said or claimed the hands work independently from the arms or the rest of the body. Will you agree to this? In the Jones system, regardless of what happens physiologically, the hands are the whole show. And in the Jones system, the hands lead, inspire, motivate all the “feelings” the rest of the muscles experience.
You: “…We as teachers even talk about supination and pronation of the hands but in actuality it’s a rotation of the forearms that produce the results. However, our sensation is that we moved the hands to accomplish this.”
Yes, yes, and yes. No argument from me. You actually said more eloquently exactly what I have been proposing about the Jones’ system. It very definitely is the “sensation” we feel of the hands making what the forearms in reality accomplish.. But it is imperative in the Jones’ system that the golfer feels the hands making the initial movement. And no Griffin, the Jones’ exercise prevents, makes impossible for the hands to break the wrists prematurely or to an early set. Again, I submit you still don’t understand the application of that exercise completely or fully. The wrists never can break prematurely once the exercise is learned. No way in every way! And you still don’t fully appreciate that the exercise is critical to the entire Jones’ methodology! Again, I refer you to Frankel Golf in Florida.
Jones very precisely didn’t want folks thinking or emphasizing shoulders and arms and forearms in their swing action because he knew this would lead into the golfer’s greatest swing malady — “leverage!” Hogan in his “Fundamentals” drove the golfing citizenry crazy when he attempted to explain supination and pronation. Jones was right in demphasizing all these terms which only create tension and misdirection. And he was right as evidenced by the fact that the rotary, big muscle swing systems have not improved the collective handicap of the golfing public for the last 30 years!
Griffin, if the big muscle mechanical approach works for you, fine! But it has not been working for golfers universally as is dramatically attested by the people who give comment on these posts. They all hurt physically and emotionallyy and the common malady that is expressed throughout their testimony is the reality that they are not putting a righteous swing on the club. And this is precisely why thinking or contemplating on large muscle application destroys a swinging action for “most” golfers.
You: “…the hands made the movement. They didn’t. It was the forearms.”
I don’t disagree! The forearms are critical in all of the athletic actions I described in the past. The forearms, not the wrists, supply a great deal of power. They are really the first most important muscles to make that swing. But I believe Jones was right on when he entrusted the application of the forearms to the feeling of the hands leading and directing the whole show.
Griffin again, Jones knew that emphasizing the smallest of muscles in the swing motion would prevent leverage, inconsistency, and dreate the action you most subscribe — the one piece take away. And again and again, Jones’ exercise gave an action that was diametrically opposed to early wrist break or any action that did not bring in the one piece presence of the rest of the upper body.
As our friend Amos on this post has exclaimed a most common complaint. A complaint that reveals that he is all tied down, restrained, by swing bits and pieces. A pure swing action automatically employs all those “bits and pieces” correctly. And that is why Griffin, I decry your “mechanics” approach. Why? Because it hasn’t worked for the majority of the golfing public oh these many decades.
Jones knew that thinking “hands” would return a true swing action to the golfing public. He knew success would be made quickly and automatically. And unlike you, he did not give up on that golfing public believing they were not ready or incapable of becoming “feel” players.
The greatest example of what I’m trying to convey is the “poster boy” for the mechanical school of golf. He was a great golfer with a great game who utterly and completely destroyed his beautiful swing action when he went “mechanical” on his whole professional approach. Yes, I’m speaking of Nick Faldo. The golfing public today is inundated with “mechanics.” The results over the years have proved this approach disastrous. That collective handicap has not change — it has grown worse!
Feel is what separates out, defines the great athletic performance in any contest. I want, like Jones, to see “feel” returned to the golf swing. The evidence is in. Mechanical golf has sent golfers on a wandering path of mistakes — an odyssey leading into places of confusion and stifling frustration.
Hands application, as Jones envisioned, has and will returned the golf swing to the golf swinger. Griffin, I’m afraid your “mechanical” approach needs to finally go the way of the Faldo man, the Baker-Finch man, and the Edsel.
Happy Thanksgiving
Well, let’s wait a sec. here. You failed to mention Seve who was a feel player to the max. And, I do get the drill quite well. The issue, plain and simple. is that when you tell and the key word is tell, most amateur golfers to start the swing with their hands this justifies and means to them that they take their hand and immediately rotate them inward and at the same time cocking the wrists that produces a very laid off position and causes an over the top move in most or an in more sever in to out swing and a big hook in others. It doesn’t matter to me what a person thinks starts the swing or what they feel as long as they understand what is really happening. And the point to the first reply to your post is that you just can say to that average amatuer that you start the back swing with you hands because they have no idea what is really meant and the process that you already know. That was my whole case. Further clarification is to what is a feel player and a mechanical player. To me, the feel player has little regard to the basics involved in the golf swing other than alignment. Get aligned and let ‘er rip. The mechanical player pays more attention to what is required physically in the golf swing and is much more analytical in the long run. And the PPGS swing fits that category. (my opinion)
Still seems that we are in agreement on what does and doesn’t happen but differ in how to communicate it. Being that I work with a good number of students that start that back swing by turning the hands inside and cocking the wrists, I am keenly aware of my verbage in giving instructions. To the person that makes that move, when asked what started the back swing the answer is THE HANDS. Hence my staunch position as to how to word things more clearly and paint a verbal picture when I’m not with the person information is being given too.
Going back to the knife drill. If you gave the average person the handkerchief with the knife attached and told them to get it swinging by moving the hands that would become very frustrated and give up. However, if you gave them the apparatus and told them to find a way to move the knife from waist high to waist high, they would eventually figure it out. If I gave them the apparatus and said I wanted them to swing the knife from waist high to wasit high moving only muscles of the arms, they get it even quicker. If I tell them the same thing and demonstrate, it’s theirs immediately. So, this is why I’m steadfast in my pickyness over words. If a person is reading them that’s all they have to go one and what you may be thinking may not be what they are interpreting. We also have to be sure of that even when we speak. Once direction is given we always ask for the hearer to “give” it back to us to ensure complete understanding.
Will the cirle go unbroken? By and bye! (pun) and I’m finished.
Yo Griffin
Hi, how are you doing?
You; “…you just can say to that average amatuer (sic) that you start the back swing with you hands because they have no idea what is really meant and the process that you already know.“
Yes, yes. and emphatically, “yes.” You are entirely and completely correct. And that is precisely why Jones was so precise with first teaching his all-encompassing exercise. He never told his students to all of a sudden start their swing with their hands. The result would have been predictable as you have described.. No, he very specifically and very intentionally had all his students perform that exercise move so that they could “feel” a pure swing movement. Then when they were told to “swing the clubhead with their hands,” they knew exactly what to do.
I respectively disagree on your point about a feel player simply winging it. No, any athlete, any golfer who feels their motion, as anticipated and relayed by hand action, is and must always be concerned with what the other body parts are correctly or incorrectly doing. If I discover that I’m losing balance, or my grip is sloppy, or my alignment is off, I take note But the cure is making sure that I’m making that swing motion and not causing some leverage to interfere. Griffin, try putting your feet together and swinging the club. If you use any part of the body other than your hands to make a full swing, you will lose balance every time.
Look at all the pros on the tour. They all have different grips, different alignments, different takeaways, different everything! And Lord knows they all tinker with the vast array of swing positions and swing parts. But when they are playing well they are all doing the exact same thing — they are making a pure unadulterated swing motion. And in the final analysis, they are able to return to that swing action through the message the feel in their hands relays.
David Duval possessed a classic swing motion which made him number one in the world. When his game deteriorated, he went to a dozen coaches and received a dozen cures. He’s so caught up in mechanics he’s forgotten to swing. Has their ever been a more mechanical player than Bobby Clampett. But despite the incredible emphasis in body parts and positions, he started out with a great game and a great swing. But truth be told, he lays blame on the sudden deterioration of his swing to all the advice he sought from others on what additional swing mechanics he should possess to be an even better player. As a result, he stopped swinging and lost forever the potential he certainly displayed, to become someday a great golfer.
Griffin, you mentioned: “…The mechanical player pays more attention to what is required physically in the golf swing and is much more analytical in the long run. And the PPGS swing fits that category. (my opinion).”
Hey, that’s my opinion too. I completely agree. And as you have observed on the many posts to Don’s forum., some people have reacted very quickly to his teachings because they have brought to the fore a fundamental swing motion. But many are struggling with the PPGS. They point out in their struggle certain positions they can’t obtain or simply don’t understand. And the more they work on the mechanical side of the PPGS, the more frustrated they become. And that is why I have suggested to all in the last month that Ernst Jones should be included as their swing mentor along with Don Trahan. And thankfully Don, with great foresight and humility, agrees with the Jones‘ system and believes it adds to the PPGS — not detracts from it. Don is very much a “hands” player and feels the hands play a critical role in making The PPGS happen.
Griffin, If you read and reread the post Don placed on this site “Letters from Warren,” I think you will discover, that what Warren and Ernest and Don and myself all espouse, is the start of a golfing revolution in this country for all amateurs and pros alike that will see folks swinging that cluibhead better than ever before. And the PPGS is definitely a significant part of that revolution conducting a terrorist threat on any instruction that interferes with a pure swing action.
Griffin, I hear you about trying to communicate verbiage your students might understand (or misunderstand). But help is on the way. I think you finally “get” the Jones swing exercise. And I promise, when you correctly apply and teach that exercise to your students, not one of them will be twisting or turning their wrist into outer space.
You wrote “..Hence my staunch position as to how to word things more clearly and paint a verbal picture when I’m not with the person information is being given too.”
And the exercise will solve that dilemma of searching for the right words or terms. You can’t teach feel with words. But you can show students how to teach themselves the “feel” of a swing motion using the immaculate and blessed Ernest Jones’ exercise. Please try with your new insight to teach this wonderful swing exercise. And then report back to me and we will continue the brainstorm. I know you have the right stuff to become a great teacher of the pure swing motion. Trust it and trust you! Now if you just can convince yourself of my accurate and passionate observation of your talent!
An side: And listen, if you insist on teaching the exercise with utilizing only the arms I will grudgingly support that. because “the swing is the thing!” But I believe your students will eventually and naturally arrive at the sensation that it is their hands making, instilling their pure swing motion because they will finally realize that it is their hands that are the “only“ body part that touches the club. (Who feels with their arms?)
Darrell Klassen it’s all in the left wrist snapping clubhead down.Everthing else just happens.
Mechanical versus Feel–what researchers tell us
Regarding “mechanical school of golf” versus the “feel school of golf,” psychological research in how people learn tells us that there some people are on the mechanical side of the spectrum and some are on the feel side of the spectrum, with people distributed along the two extremes. We also know that when you meet an expert who exhibits both correct mechanics and expert feel, you cannot tell which came first, an attention to mechanics or a desire for feel. It is only when you observe them learning something new that you can see them revert to their stronger learning side. Take a jazz musician, for example, who demonstrates both expert technique (striking the right keys, for example), and artistry (adding personal interpretation to the music to differentiate himself/herself from a computer playing the same music). You cannot tell if he/she values technique more than artistry or artistry more than technique.
“Feel” is an oversimplified opposite of “mechanics/mechanical.” Some say that “rhythm” is the opposite, and some say that “holism” is the opposite. It may be all three. The difficulty is that it is in the eye of the beholder. We can see mechanical behaviors easily, but as for the opposite, some of us see it in terms of rhythm, some see it in terms of feel, and some see it as something holistic. Even the person swinging the club is sometimes unable to tell us which of these it is.
It is important for a teacher to quickly deduce the learning preference of a student if the student is having difficulty learning. A more gifted learner (not necessarily gifted, just more gifted) can learn biomechanical motions without the teacher knowing specifically if he/she has one preference over another, and good teachers know this instinctively through observation and adjusts his/her teaching intuitively. I have seen athletes in several sports quit a sport because the teaching came from one direction while the brain was trying to learn it from the other, and frustration resulted. The learner, especially a youngster, cannot tell you about this frustration because he/she cannot conceptualize it.
It seems that this dicussion needs the input of an exercise physiologist or someone who works in the area of kinesiology. Perhaps the discussants do hold those credentials but simply have not informed us. I have such friends and can ask them to confirm or refute some of the information proposed in this blog, but that might take all of the fun out of the discsussions.
I will post another comment on the theory of how the brain sends signals to the muscles and how the brain and muscles are part of a closed-loop feedback system. Without a closed loop, you have an open loop, and these are inherently unstable. All control theory in engineering are based on closed loop feedback.
Charlie
To Charles
Thanks much for your imput and yes, please relay our topic of conversation to any of your learned friends well versed in kinesiology.
To NinerMike:
Two of you wrote so much that I wonder if you could sift through it all and come up wit, say, five of the most important questions that were uncovered by the discussion on this particular issue. Then I can seek answers from people I know that have studied these issues, either in original research in their research labs or through the readings of other experts as they search for background information to build their research on. I will check this blog for any response that you might have as far as questions you might come up with. Just remember though, that the questions should be in terms of basic learning of biomechanical actions and not the specifics of golf because it may be difficult to find researchers who specifically research the question of whether the hands initiate the take back or if it is some other part of the body such as the hip, the torso, the arms, or all the above simultaneously.
Charlie
Charlie:
If I may over simplify this subject, I propose that “feel” is actually the conceptual expression of imagination as it relates to the golf swing. Just as in your analogy of a musician, which I have been a professional at that also all be it, a lot of years ago, you can play the notes and get them all correct or you can PLAY the notes with “feel” which I contend translates to the individuals mental capcity to add his/her own expression of the notes. As teachers, we also have to be aware of how the student learns as you mentioned. Are they visual, auditory, a mixture of both, ow what? Great observation on the kinesiology which is the basis for a lot of what I have posted.
To Charles
To really make it interesting and not so academic, it would be best suited for this post if you were able to corral an exercise therapist or kinesiologist who are certified “golf nuts.”
to J. Griffin :
Thanks for information regarding a certified fitter. I will give hime a call — I think Surprise is about 20 miles from my house — maybe less.
to J Griffin and NinerMike:
I support both of you ideas — I find myself agreeing with both of you. As an engineer (analytical mind) I tend to use “mechanics” to develop “feel” — which I believe definitely resides in the hands and fingers. But ultimately I think I am a “feel” player.
But when one is a rank beginner, it is impossible to describe “feel” — it must be learned — whether by some teaching on the “mechanics of the swing” or by some clever analogy (the Jones exercise). Either way should work, but the results may well vary from student to student, depending on his/her mindset. See the above posting by Charlie.
I also belong to a very small fraternity of golfers — who else do you know that when first learning the game, the first club they hit with anything approaching consistency, reliability and accuracy was the 3 iron? Soon followed by the Driver and the 5 iron — and finally the other clubs, except for the putter. It seemed like it took me forever to develop the “feel” and “touch” for putting and chipping, but once there it stuck forever.
Keep hitting them straight.
Amos
Amos:
I think the vast majority of folks have to get the mechanics down first and then feel is developed and learned from experience. But, once in a great while there comes along a prodigy that is able to combine them at the same time.
Surge:
I have asked questions and talked about things that work, I also pitched fastball for a perfession and made a few bucks doing it, and when I retired from pitching about 40 years of age, my legs started to go and so did my velosity, I still can pitch the odd one fast but I throw more junk now. at one time I was clocked in the high eighty’s to middle ninties. Again when I over through I had a problem hitting targets and my finish or balance wasn’t the same. legs, hips and elbo to wrist strength/ good conditioning gets more velocity, if I through with just my arms it would be for off speed pitches but again the delivery has to look the same to keep the batter’s off balance. And when I through all the different pitches it was the direction of the wrist at the bottom or release point that made the ball go down,up or curve. Hope this helped.
To Robert Birch
Yes, when your legs were in tip-top shape, you went ahead feeling the ball in your hands and whipping that sucker for all its worth. Now you recognize the larger muscles of your body (namely the legs) have changed and because of that new condition you are experiencing a different feel of the ball in your hands — a feel of the ball in your hands that has always been fundamentalm to your athletic application.
Now you are asking your hands to feel the ball differently — a different feel so you can make make specific pitches that compliment your bodies present capabilities. Very good!
Ninermike: You make me chuckle. Is there anything that isn’t directly driven by the hands in your world? I shutter to ask how the hands are responsible for someone to ski well rather than the feet. I thik the last post was a bit of a stretch but I still enjoy you!
Robert:
Put in in just one sentence for all to see. Did you throw with the arms and body or with the hands? (source of movement and power?) I know the answer as I raised two pitchers that went well on past little league. Then, what gave direction to the path of the ball, arms and body or hands? (the actual path that the ball started on?) Finally, what gave shape to the pitch, i.e, what behavior the ball exhibited while in flight, the arms and body or the hands? Once you post, I will tie this whole conceptual roller coaster ride into the their functions in the golf swing.
Ninermike: It finally came to me to draw the analogy of the hand and arm deal and movement to the invention that we’ve seen advertised on T.V. where you have a handle and trigger on one end of a pole and on the other end you have tong like appendage. So, to get a can down from the top shelf, you pull the trigger that opens the tongs grasps the can and brings in down. So, you are the brain, the trgger and lever system are the muscles, and the tongs of course the hands. So, what accomplished the movement in the task? You have gotten waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy to caught up in Jones’ book to see what I think was the real application of the book which to me was to stop getting too overly analytical and just swing the club head. The FEEL of swinging the club head is not just generated by the hands. Every nerve fiber involved in the swing is communicating to the brain what is going on and relates to feel. The hands feel the club, they feel impact. The hands don’t even feel direction. The question bears asking: Can you make a pure swing without the use of the hands and the answer is YES! There are plently of physically challenged individual whether from birth, accident, or what have you that have no hands but still play golf and swing the club head. However, if there were no ball and socket joint, i.e. the shoulder, the swing would be impossible. Feel the swing! Feel the music! Feel the aritist paint brush! FEEL FEEL FEEL Define feel. You can’t do it. Feel is individually specifc. You can spot it when you see it and you can tell when it’s missing but you really can’t define it. The musician who plays a piece with feel as opposed to the person who doesn’t. Even though they both play the same notes, in same time, etc. you can tell that there is a difference. So, what is that difference. I submit that it is their expression of what they are doing and the inner being (creativity, imagination) that accomplishes this. I do not think it is something that can be taught or learn. For this reason I think this is why certainl people excel at certain things. If you will, it is what makes us unique and different in that the Creator blessed each and everyone of us with certain talents and abilities. The expression of feel is one of them and we ain’t all got it. But, that doesn’t keep us from being able to enjoy the same things that those with feel do. Some may never really play with feel but that doesn’t mean they can’t learn finese. So, the saga took a sabatical but the game is back on!
Wow what an epic collection of postings. The historical feud between Michelangelo (feel) and Da Vinci (mechanical) comes to mind as they both created fantastic works of art. In the golf swing there is always an individual combination of feel/mechanics going on. Those who feel create the mechanics and those who focus on the mechanics create the feel. Every one will be different between the two ends of the spectrum. The point missing is that the PPGS swing creates a simple, repeatable move to apply the club head on the ball so it is moving linearly down the target line at impact. In reference to Charlie’s point about kinesiology there are four movements possible; body rotation, vertical hinge with the wrists, vertical arm movement and arm rotation. Stance and grip will influence how these movements are assembled and released. First the body rotation. This is simply the body rotating around the spine. In the PPGS the knees restrict the lower part of the body which helps create the 3/4 swing and keeps the club head out of the SBG. Second the vertical arm hinge. The amount of hinging possible will be determined by the grip. In the PPGS there is limited hinging due to the back hand being square to the club face and the front hand turned slightly strong. This will help the club head get into the best position in which to add speed as the club falls down into impact. Vertical arm hinge is lifting the arms and hands up and away from the body. In the PPGS it starts very quietly and reaches a crescendo as the club goes up the tree. Lastly the fore arm rotation. The fore ward arm rotates so the toe remains vertical when the club is parallel to the ground. This helps keep the club out of the SBG also. In assembling the individual’s swing it is unimportant if one uses feel or mechanics to get the correct positions. The key is to swing the club back so the butt end swings parallel to the target line. Having the knees and feet parallel make this a lot easier. The back swing can be made with the forward arm/hand, back arm/hand or a combination of both. When the club is swung along the toe line with the fore arm rotation keeping the toe vertical the back arm will fold slightly. Because the butt end of the club is moving linearly along the toe line with a slight amount of arm rotation and the knees controlling too much body rotation the vertical arm lift will swing the club up the tree to the top and out of the SBG. The 3/4 limited turn keeps the club head high off the ground which adds speed to the downswing. The bump fore ward is crucial. It helps the arms reverse the vertical lift from the back swing linearly so the right elbow drops in front of the back hip. This is the position all great ball strikers achieve. This lets the back arm straighten and release the stored up energy into the ball as it straightens and the fore arm rotation returns the club face squarely down the target line. The hips then rotate towards the target and swinging up to the T is easy to attain. How you create your swing, whether feel or mechanical is less important than understanding where the club goes and how it gets to the Mitt and up the Tree and drops into the release position so the back arm can give power and accuracy at impact. Myself I use one thought at the start and that is to “plane” the lower part of the shaft so it moves back along the target line. Every thing else falls into place.
Great post Stretch C and thank you!
Thanks J. Griffin, having been written in Stretchese I was wondering if anyone would understand it!
to Strecth:
You echo my thoughts on the matter very eloquently
Amos
I have been starting to learn playing golf recently. But my performance was really disappointing and I even began to doubt that I could never be able to play it until days ago a friend of mine recommended me this ebook “The Simple Golf Swing”, also called “Golf Swing Guru”. It is the best selling golf swing book authored by David Nevogt, who is a golf expert and a great golf teacher.
I have to say that this book is really helpful in solving your swing problems.