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I have been asked in person and in blogs to comment on Steve Stricker’s swing as to his being vertical and no wrist cocking at the top of his backswing. Since he won the Northern Trust Open at Riviera CC, we extend congratulations to him. And because he lead the pack, we all got to watch a lot him and his swing for the past week. So Steve deserves attention about his accomplishments. Now, let’s look at his swing as I see it.
The most obvious two points about Stricker’s swing, relative to the PPGS, is that he has, without a doubt, a ¾ length backswing and no wrist cock. His shorter backswing obviously results from his no wrist cock at the top as well as no down cock in the transition. Steve has the top of backswing look in his wrists and forearms that I call the “Steel Girder Effect.” That is, they are firm, solid and you see no bending, breaking, flexing or even twitching in them swinging up to the top of the backswing and also, most importantly, in the transition.
Watching the final round telecast we were handed a double delicious dose of ¾ backswings, with firm and locked wrists at the top with JB Holmes playing in the final group with Stricker. This past week on February 3rd, I wrote an article titled, “Top of Backswing…3/4…No Wrist Cock” which was all about JB Holmes’ Playing Lesson with the Pos on the Golf Channel, and the questions and comments I heard about his ¾ backswing and firm wrists in the show. As far as seeing ¾ backswings and firm wrists, The Northern Trust Open TV coverage doesn’t get any better.
For this article I checked out Stricker’s swing on You Tube and the one I watched from a down the line view can be seen clicking on this link. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZTQa0W0WJk&NR=1&feature=fvwp .
Starting with his setup, Stricker has a solid PPGS dynamically balanced setup with proper spine tilt, knee flex and weight over his arches. I drew a line from his hip sockets, right at the crease line in his right pant leg to the ground and it correctly passed through his ankle showing his weight is over his arches.
As I see Stricker’s swing, he is caught between vertical and a little rotational. Relative to the PPGS swing he has a lot of good similarities and I believe that is why he is still hitting it so well. But, in the past year or so, I have seen his backswing get flatter and deeper and he is hitting more pushes and blocks to the right. But overall, his swing is solid as a rock at the top and transition at ¾, and with no wrist cock. Let’s now take a detailed look.
Stricker starts his backswing with a good one piece takeaway. I see left or forward knee movement inward more than I care to see. But it is smooth and controlled and the foot appears to remain fairly well grounded, and for most of the backswing, his knees stay quite level. Unfortunately, his inward moving left knee allows too much shoulder and hip turn and he gets inside of his toe line and deep into the SBG, the Sacred Burial Ground.
This hip and shoulder turn is well past the PPGS 70 degree limited turn parameter of his left or forward arm not swinging past his toe line. With too much turn, his right or back elbow gets past his right pocket and well behind his body. Lastly, the top of backswing checkpoint of drawing a line straight down from the butt of the club to the ground should pass through his ankle but instead touches the ground 2 to 4 inches back of his heels, another proof he is deep in the SBG.
Finally, too much torso turn pulls his right or back leg inward and it straightens up. This causes what I call “EBRT,” End of Backswing Reverse Tilt. Watch closely and you will see that as his right legs is pulled backwards and straightens, his head slightly moves forward, down and inward a little. That is the EBRT. Why is it important and is it good or bad? The answer is it is BAD for a number of reasons.
EBRT is bad in that at the top of his backswing because his upper torso is moving forward ahead of and closer to the ball. In his transition he keeps his head relatively level as compared to most golfers who would slightly stand up to get their height back as well as drift backwards to get back behind the ball. Since his head stays level, his correction in the transition is that his head drifts straight backwards and is just about perfectly in the same place as it was before the drift at impact. He makes a perfect compensation move in this swing to regain his distance and width for his arms to straighten out at impact and, as we see, he hit it dead straight down the middle.
The problem is if Steve’s compensation is too much or too little in the forward and back, or if his EBRT gets some down and up in it, his margin of error at the top of his backswing and transition increases. Increased error = decreased success as now more compensations are needed. The main flight problem is hitting pushes and blocks. Watching Steve play his problem shot is losing it right. The last reason why EBRT is bad is because it is extremely stressful on the lower back.
Stricker makes a good level transition in his forward upswing. Because he is deep and his arms and clubs are behind him, he has to rotate his shoulders and hips more to clear them out of the way to get to impact. Despite this, he stands up AFAP nicely and swings his arms up vertical and ON PLANE to a level with high hands T – Finish. His high finish is the main reason for his good ball striking and directional control. The issue at the finish, is that his torso turns a little too far past square to the target and his hands and club are way to wide left of his head. This wide left finish is also a big cause of stress in the neck, shoulders and down to the lower back and hips.
Overall, Steve Stricker’s swing is flowing, firm, solid, well timed and balanced and that is why his ball striking is superior. Add to that he has one of the best short games and is one of the best putters walking the planet, that’s why he is now #2 in the world.
My concern is if he stays too flat and deep in his backswing, his ball striking and ball control will keep deteriorating, and he may start having stress and strain issues in his lower back, if not neck and shoulders. My recommendation to Steve, if he were to read this, is simply keep his ¾ no wrist cock backswing, but reduce the turn to the PPGS 70 degree turn of the left arm over the toe line and get the club up more vertical to 12:00 o’clock and light. Both of those should be easy to do and have it grooved in 30 minutes or less with the Butt on the Wall drill. For his finish, he just needs to swing his arms and hands up more vertical and finish with his right hands close to his left ear.
That’s all. All Steve Stricker needs to do is just tighten up his Technical Excellence in his swing positions.
The Surge!
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Appears Steve Stricker swing is more along the lines of Stack & Tilt, which many of the touring pro’s are using now, especially the younger guys. Although I have gained some very valuable
lessons from The surge, I find the Stack & Tilt has been easier to adjust to than the PPGS.
In all fairness I’ve have spent more time with it. I just find that keeping weight left through the whole set up and swing makes more sense and I certainly make better contact than loading on my right and shifting my weight over.
Don-
Very nice analysis of Stricker. My question is this though; it would seem that your suggestion(s) to Steve would take his relatively one-plane swing and make it more two-plane in that you are suggesting a more upright plane as he swings back. This is exactly where your students will want to see video’s with stop action and some lines drawn in to compare the two planes. What I keep wondering to myself is would the PPGS get Stricker more power or would he lose power? And by going off plane to get more upright does the golfer allow more chance of not getting back to plane on the downswing? I believe you may be correct on the whole back strain thing as you readers seem to attest to. But I wonder how Hogan swung like he did all the years he played? He was said to be a workaholic with a real practice ambition. Was he simply a one-of-a-kind the likes of which we will never see again? Good commentary!
Mike,
Afraid I must disagree. Stricker definitely shifts weight right in his backswing, even to the extent of getting into a slight reverse tilt as Surge noted. He then clears and shifts weight forward and through to a good solid upright finish position (see Surge’s comments on this as well). Definitely NOT stack and tilt.
Regarding Surge’s critique of Steve’s swing vis-a-vis PPGS, Surge may recall that Steve has had some physical ailments in past years which he might have avoided altogether had he been using PPGS. In this connection, I am 65 years young, no longer thin and flexible as I was playing sports in school so long ago, and have had my share of aches and pains with golf. However, since starting PPGS I have ceased having to take painkillers prophilactically before a round and rarely have an ache after. In addition to being pain-free (ain’t THAT enough???) my handicap has begun coming down. Maybe Idied and this is heaven????
Michael
Somehow the power in Stricker’s swing is being overlooked. It has to come from his SHOULDER TURN, and thatt is the next big discovery in the knowledge of the golf swing.
The swing has now become so much simpler, and you can see it with the iron play of Ogilvey and Zack as well.
The backswing is a simple shoulder-arm movement…..little or no wrist cock.
The lower body is quiet,
The downswing is initiated by the shoulders, and then arms etc., Cracking the whip.
The right heel stays close to the ground as the ball is hit, and then the heel releases.
To maintain your distance as you get older, it is so much easier to do exercises that strengthen the turn, and increase the flexibility.I use 4 exercises for strength and speed, and at age 72, I’m looking for 275 off the tee, and dreaming of 300.
I’ve been beating this drum for 2 years……..it’s time has come.
Mike P,
No Way! The only time Stricker is on his left side is in the follow through and finish. Most of the S & T guys that endorsed this swing early on aren’t even using it any longer.
Jerry,
The swing plane being defined as plane of shoulders and club has it’s place but Don defines the plane as just what does the club do. Don’s of the opinion that the PPGS is one plane as the club stays on the same plane through the entire swing. It’s basically up, then down. Even it what has been traditionally called the one plane swing (flat) there is still some change of the line or path as it returns to the ball. It’s not nearly as much as the other swing granted.
I am the boys golf coach at Santa Fe High School and the Director of the Gainesville Jr. Golf Tour. Do you have any programs or discounts for these? Thanks
Thanks Surge, for your excellent analysis. I would suggest you also look at his hold/grip on the club. It looks very much like a single axis grip, which places the club in line with his rear arm, as opposed to a two axis grip (used by most pros) which creates an angle between the rear arm and the shaft. A single axis grip provides mechanical advantages that cannot be achieved with a two axis grip. PGA professional Scott Hazledine (see http://www.scigolf.com) can educate you on the benefits/advantages of a single axis grip.
Gang- OK, let me get this straight. We are sitting on a website, critiquing the number# 2 golfer in the world, like he is ready to fall apart because he does not follow one of a hundred different “schools” of golf.
Somehow Strick has been able to reach this level of ability hitting out of a heated trailer at Cherokee Country Club in Madison, WI, despite the fact that he is violating so many rules of the PPGS swing. Hmmmm. Interesting. It should tell all of us that there is no “secret”, just “opportunities”. .
Now back to the telecast, and the heated trailer. Terry
.
Surge,
A new morning…. but before I go back to last nights lessons I want to tell you what I notice about Streve Strickers swing.
The first thing I notice is his feet, to me he looks like he has his toes in line with the center of the sand trap on the left.
Second I can’t find the seam you are refering to on his right hip. Are you refering to the stiching down the side of his leg?
Third I notice he does not get the toe up until he is past the catchers mit (maybe this is what is ment when you say LAYED BACK?
Forth I watched to see if he keeps the left are straite, I do believe he does!
Fifth I see his right elbow seem to almost jerk to the rear of his hips? (probably not?)
Sixth I watch his right elbow intensly and to me it seems like he does what I do (remember I say my irons are dead on) To me he seems to draw the right elbow directly towards his right hip as a reference or guide line? I do this for sure and I believe it is why my irons are so good.
The reason I am mentioning all this is because if I can’t understand yesterdays blog with the (square grip, layed back direction of the face of the club) I want to know if any of my above observations are wrong?
Thanks again,
Rod
PS back to last nights blog…
Sorry,
fourth, left arm.
I really enjoy reading your critiques of professional golfers…do you ever hear from them following those critiques?
Surge, I have been following the dailly posting and would like a clarification regarding the 12 o’clock positiion at the top of the backswing. After trying to digest all the math and angles discussed in some of the recent columns, is the correct 12 o’clock position of the PPGS relative to the level horizon or the proper spine angle. It seems to me for example that if the correct 12 o’clock top of the backswing position is relative to the spine angle the club is at 11 o’clock to the level horizon. And vice versa If the correct 12 o’clock position is based on the horizon, that becomes a 1 o’clock position relative to the proper spine angle. Thanks for your help on this.
Don, could you have a “printable version” for people to print then read? Also large fonts for our old eyes, thanks! Richard
I have a lot of trouble hitting the ball fat with my long irons, do you have some drills or techniques that could help me hit the ball on the sweet spot? Thanks.
J Griffin-
thanks for the clarification. Is it fair to say that Nicklaus swings more upright ala PPGS? Not a bad example if true.
Hi Don, I bought your lesson course a couple of days ago watch them and headed for the driveing range, well first I’m 50 and just started playing golf this past year, self taught through watching the golf cannel, free vidios on the net, and so help from a freind. oh ya and a lot of practice I started strikeing the ball streight most of the time so after four month I could start keeping my scores usely between 15 or 20 on a good day because of my age I realized that I could not hit the ball as far as the younger croud. anyway I’m excited, the 7,8,9, irons i hit farely good, 7 iron about a 150 to 160 and the 5 and 6 irons I could only hit about the same as the 7 iron. they were dead weight in my bag well no longer, 6 is 175 and the 7 is 185 to190. I’m haveing one problem the ball is going right on my short irons (8,9 and wedges) with my feet at the 30 degree position. I checked my set up and it seem to be right so I tried putting my right foot back at the perpendicular to the aiming line and the left at 30 degree. is this ok or am I not releasing the club and i’m striking the ball with the face open. I know that with out seeing my swing it’s hard to say. I know you travel on the tour with your son, if your ever near St. Louis I would like you to do surgery on me. thank I’ll keep practicing. and staying vertical
Thanks Surge for the Stricker analysis. I finally got to try the principles of the PPGS last week in Hawaii. My shots were more consistant, but I still need more work. One problem I still have is that I keep “coming over the top” on the forward swing. It is especially troublesome with fairway woods and my rescue club, causing a low ball flight, golf ball going to the right or drivng the golf ball into the ground. All is fine for the first few holes, but by the back nine, my right hand and arm (I am a righty) seems to take over. Any suggestions?
Thanks
Jim In CT
Guy’s, I did say along the lines of S & T. their are at least 20 PGA touring pro’s using it or some sort of modified version of it.S & T you do keep weight forward however you guys have pretty good eyes if you can see 55/45 weight distribution. Straitening of rear leg to allow for hip rotation
is key move for S&T Weight centered/forward then moving left is another which is often mistaken for a reverse pivot (it’s only a reverse pivot if you shift your weight back with a strait leg). Steve is not shifting weight back as much as you think.I would say only as much as you do with PPGS.
It’s slight.As mentioned theirs 100 + schools of thought and whole lot more going on with Steves
swing that you can capture off the TV.
Surge,
I have been reading the tips and watching the videos. practicing all i can in the house because of the snow. i finally bit the bullett and drove the 80 miles round trip to the nearest golf dome with one of my golf buddies today. the dome is 90 yrds deep to the back wall. i started with my 5 iron i hit the back wall dead straight again, again, and again. i worked thru all my irons it is fantastic how straight and far i can hit them all, wow. My driver was pretty good also, i need to work on ball placement alittle with my 3 & 5 woods but still pretty good. this is a huge improvement over my pain in the back former natural golf swing. my golf buddy was so impressed i’ve sent him the link to your site. thank you Surge for the PPGS the easiest most pain free swing in golf. i am turning 57 this week and my back and scores are going to thank you this year.
Jerry F,
Nicklaus was very much an upright swinger.
I think Stricker uses a perfect 3/4 one-plane swing, the club shaft remaining exactly in the same inclination at address and at the top of his swing. He is tall and with long arms and does not have to force his abreviated swing more to generate sufficient power. Within these lines, he remains in full control to obtain extraordinary precision of all his shots… and this is why he may become the best player in the world providing his putting can also match the best players.
I was from that school also (no comparison here) and had incorporated stack & tilt. This may be the an easier technique and I have envoyed it until my left knee was injured by the severe twisting occuring and the end of the swing.
I am very happy to have discovered the PPGS as I have saved my knee. I thank Don and his team for providing all the necessary answers to maintain my game to my satisfaction.
Gaetan
Is thee ever any way to have you or someone look at our swing. I seem to have a little trouble making sure that the path stays vertical on the other side of the ball and swinging up by my left ear. Is there any thought to making that happen. It feels like work redirecting the club on that path. Maybe it’s just because I haven’t done it a lot yet.
Terry has it right. And according to Golf channel guru Michel Breed, Miguel Jimenez, who just won the Dubai, comes over the top and adjusts by opening his clubface at the bottom. No problem-no shanks. And then there is Moe Norman. It’s great to have a zeal for your method but one must accept there are a number of ways to hit the ball consistently solid and straight.
ON FORGED IRON’S
I PALY FORGED IRON’S IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT CLUBS YOU PLAY.
CALLAWAY,MIZUON,NIKE, WILSON, TITLEIST,ADAMS.
BEFORE YOU PLAY TAKE THEM TO A CLUB FITTER,
OR A FITTING PROFESSIONAL.
GOLFSMITH.
EDWIN WATTS, GET YOUR LOFT AND LIE CHECKED.
IT HAS TO BE DONE. LIKE J. LYNN GRIFFIN SAID THIS NEEDS TO BE DONE
FOR THIS IS ESSENTIAL FOR ACCURACY AND DISTANCE.
I PLAY CALLAWAY FORGED I LOVE THEM , BUT I ALWAYS HAVE THEM CHECKED.
WHEN I HAVE THEM CHECKED SOME HAVE BEEN OFF BY 3 DEGREE LOFT AND LIE.
LIKE I SAID I LOVE THEM BUT I KNOW I HAVE TO HAVE THEM CHECKED BEFORE
I PLAY THEM.
JB.
THE
CALLAWAY
KID.
Stricker and Watson saved my back, not the Surge. After reading both Stricker’s and Watson’s articles in golf and golf digest the last couple months they said they rotate their whole body the same way, which causes the left knee to go in. I tried the PPGS for several months and my herniated L4 and L5 disks increased in pain. Sorry, Surge, but Stricker and Watson are kicking butt on tour and my back and game are feeling a lot better with the full hip shoulder rotation into your mythical sacred burial ground.
Dear Surge:
A belated happy new year for you and your family. Thank you for all the good information. I have been unable to play for some time. Your type of set up and swing will work for me if I can get back into the game. Your analysis of the two swings seems to prove your point. I know it will help me as it means less strain on my back, which is my main problem. Thanks very much for your instructions and analysisl.
MET
Do you need the iron lie adjusted up for the vertical swing? If so how much? I could not click on Griffin’s website,any suggestions?
Hi Don
As a PGA Pro i am always interested in the different theories regarding swing mechanics, irrespective of how much they vary from conventional swing thoughts. PPGS sounds very simple and the references are mostly fantastic.
I’m a bit puzzled by the continuous reference to “no wrist cock” In this link (also from the Masters 09: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fB0BLr-Nng&NR=1 it shows a clear wrist cock at the top of the swing. Steve clearly has late wrist set, just as Tiger does with his driver and maybe not an exagerated wrist set like Sergio. The late wrist set, in my opinion is a result of his hands being so high at address. Also, i’m not so sure about the 3/4 swing in these 2 videos either. In the Northern Trust Open though he clearly was swinging a lot shorter.
Look forward to your comments on these questions/ observations.
Best regards
Don
I AM LOOKING AT A PICTURE OF STRICKER’S SWING
He has turned his shoulders 90 degrees and his hips 45 degrees which is pretty standard other than in your system. With his driver he has also taken the club back almost to parallel. You have made it sound as though Steve is practically using your system which is obviously not the case. It is true that he uses little wrist break in his left wrist but this is the only similarity I have found comparing his swing with the swing that you teach.
Happy golfing!
I’ve been in hibernation for several months, cold and wet for months now. Finally got out to play 18 yesterday, a couple of birdies, some uncalled for bogeys, but overall 77 for the day. Not to bad.
I’ve been reading your articles with interest because I’ve had some hip pain from bursitis (left-hip) area, and it’s been diffcult to move my weight to the left side. Yesterday I just moved the club to the mitt and then to upright position and then released the club to the ball. Normally my golfing buddie and I drive the ball about the same distance. NOT YESTERDAY, I was 30 to 50 yards by-him. I felt like I was swinging with my arms only!
The weather was NOT conducive for long tee shots…temp was mid 40’s and ground was wet, no carry at all. It might have been a fluke, but if so, it was sweet, whatever it was!
I’ll keep you informed. Until next time.
Regards,
Richard
Richard
if you have windows vista or 7 if you” ctrl+” it will increase the font for you
To Jerry Foley,
Let me see if I can answer all the questions you asked in your first blog.
1. You mention that Steve has a relative 1 plane swing. I don’t want to or have the space to get into a discussion of 1 plane vs 2 plane swings other than to make two statements. This term comes from the book that defines the 1 and 2 plane swings. In this book they call the PPGS a 2 plane swing, and they call the rotational swing a 1 plane.
Well, in this 1 plane swing they describe having a shaft angle plane set at address that you take the club away on and then lift up to the shoulder plane. Swing down returning to the shaft plane for impact and through and then lift back up to the shoulder plane. Shaft plane = #1 plane and Shoulder plane = #2 plane in their definition in the complete swing you change on them 3 times. How can swinging on 2 planes as defined and changing or switching 3 times be a 1 plane swing?
On the other hand the PPGS, swings on a plane defined as a line from the ball through the neck and beyond resting on the shoulders. We swing on this 1 plane both in the backswing and on up in the forward swing to the finish. We swing on this one and only 1 and the same plane on both sides of the ball. So, which is the 1 plane swing and which is the 2 plane swing?
You asked “And by going off plane to get more upright does the golfer allow more chance of not getting back to plane on the downswing?” Well, by what I just described about the PPGS which is in fact, I believe, the 1 plane swing and the rotational swing with the shaft plane and shoulder plane and changing 3 times every swing is what applies to this question not the PPGS. The PPGS, swings on 1 and the same plane both in the backswing and forward upswing to the finish.
Your question as to will Stricker have more power and get longer using the PPGS swing… absolutely, Read up on all the articles about vertical, light club swinging in harmony with gravity and less stress and strain. The PPGS swings in harmony with Physics adn physiology so the laws are helping not hurting us and we are swinging using our body as it is designed to move which also is in harmony with physics.
Regarding “Mr Hogan and his swing being one of a kind the likes of which we may never see again,” I would say is close to correct. I asked Dr. Ned my Orthopedic Surgeon mentor that I believed by his unique swing Mr. Hogan was 1 in a hundred thousand in body attributes, like super duper supple and flexible, Dr. Ned said not even close and took my guesses up to 1 in 5 million plus. He puts Michael Jordan in this special group as I am sure Tiger Woods is also a member. The point to make here in the from of a question is how can anyone who does not possess the physical and for that mater mental attributes of Mr. Hogan swing like him? If one does not physically have what it takes they cannot make the swing. And, the Hogan swing, which is the rotational swing as you attested to is very stressful and is responsible for a lot of pain and injury in golfers.
Lastly, regarding Mr. Hogan and his rotational swing and his long hours of practice. I believe that shows and attests to the fact that this swing is a high degree of error swing that needs a lot of practice to learn it and equally long amounts of practice to keep ii fine tuned. So, more practice to learn it and keep it tuned and with more stress and strain especially for golfers not super supple and flexible and fit and that sounds like a recipe for pain and injury as we are witnessing today in extremely high numbers of golfers at all levels even on the professional tours where they work out and stay fit but are still injuring themselves. Whereas, with the PPGS swing players are not getting injured and those with injuries in learning the PPGS are returning and swinging and playing with less to almost no pain and hitting it better, more consistent and and playing better and more golf pain free.
The Surge!
If Steve read this mularkey, and believed one word of it, it would accomplish exactly what Mr. Trahan wants it to — screw him up forever.
Steve Stricker’s swing fits his stature, flexibility — and all the moving parts — which is the reason his swing will last for the next 30 years.
Have been following his ups and downs for the last 14 years. Amazingly he is almost back to where he was when he won the Western in 1996, before getting screwed up by an equipment change and his well intentioned father-in-law.
One needs to focus on his tempo and timing — which I used to Shoot my age, on a 128 course rating, with a 39 – 37,, including 5 birdies, in a 20 MPH wind and low 40’s wind chill.
Is his swing as simple as Annika Sorenstam’s swing — kinda like swinging a 5 lb sack of sugar — You betcha?
To Jim D,
If you are calling Steve Stricker’s swing as almost going to parallel, you and I don’t have the same definition of parallel.
Three quarters is 25 percent less than 100. If parallel to the ground is considered 100 percent of a backswing, than John Daly’s overswing is 125 percent plus. Steve Stricker short of parallel swing is by no means even anywhere near parallel by my standards and for that matter the standard of the vast majority of golfers, and is a perfect example of a 3/4 backswing.
The Surge!
I’m still not hearing the most important part of the downswing mentioned on here. It’s why I believe the PPGS method (3/4 two plane method) to be far inferior to Hogan’s one plane swing. What I’m talking about is the weight shift to the left foot at the beginning of the downswing. With a 3/4 upright PPGS swing there is no time for weight transition to occur. A one plane athletic swing is the way to go for people who come over the top. I know this is fact, having spent 9 yrs. struggling with getting steep on the ball with a two plane swing. When I switched to a one plane swing in 2005 I started coming from the inside and hitting a nice high draw. Isn’t this what every golfer wants?? Why on earth would you recommend a fade to a golfer who struggles with coming over the top? Hogan never complained of back trouble because he utilized the big muscles and strong abdominals to move the golf club. Are you going to tell me that Hogan would have played better using PPGS?? Surge, I think you and D.J. are phenomenal golfers who could play well with any method and you found a way with your PPGS method to play pain free. Good for you. I completely disagree with you about this method being effective for the AVERAGE golfer however. A one plane method is a much easier swing to repeat and will effectively cure coming over the top and help eliminate the slice. I think Peter Jacobsen is a great example of a golfer who switched from two plane to one plane and had his greatest success along with countless others. Next thing I’m thinking your going to tell me is Sergio Garcia would have won a major if he eliminated his wrist cock. C’mon now. Let’s be honest with ourselves. The PPGS is a noble idea in theory but please start emphasizing weight shift to the left at the start of the downswing for your students who keep slicing even though they hit the catchers mitt and go up the tree. Maybe it will help. Better yet, have them buy Jim Hardy’s book the one plane swing and Hogan’s the Modern Fundamentals of Golf if you really want to help them become better golfers. Good luck.
To Jim from CT,
If you are coming over the top, you are likely turning too much in the backswing and getting deep and behind yourself into the SBG. From there you have to get your arms and club from behind you to out in front of you to swing down the aiming line to impact. Getting from behind to around in front is the outside to in coming over the top swing.
The point to remember about golf is stated in this Surgism: Golf is like life. What goes around, comes around.
The answer is to make the limited 70 degree turn, to your forward arm over your toe line backswing. The Butt on the Wall drill will help as well as other drills I gave in a 2/5 article titled “Laid off at the Top of the Backswing…Cures, Tests and Drills.”
The Surge!
I still can’t get your system to wok for me no Distance – my handcap went fro 14 to 20 .
To Mike Pereira, that’s cool that you have benifited from the S&T. However I would say that to me,Strickers swing has very little in common with the S&T. For one he does move to his back foot on the back swing. and does THEN move to his left or forward foot after.As Surge said above, he occasionally appears to do an END of backswing reverse tilt.As you know, the S&T has you set up with more weight already forward and you are to stay forward back and through. (Not Sticker and not for me thanks) Secondly,(with all due respect),it is my understanding that most of those pros you refered to NO LONGER are employing the Stack and Tilt method.
TO SURGE, 2 weeks ago on the golfchannel Robert Alenby saidthat he and most pros are trying to shorten their swing to 3/4.Interesting!
Darby,
Just how much of the PPGS have you studied? The start of the downswing is initiated by the “bump” of the left hip which starts the weight shift to the left. Those that have studied the PPGS or followed the blogs for any period of time understand this.
I was at Sunday’s round at the soggy Riveria and followed Mickelson’s group for awhile and then Stirker’s group at the turn. The difference between these two golfers seems to be concentration and distraction. Phil seemed distracted and Steve seemed totally confident and at peace with himself. Phil pulled shots and Steve hit most of his straight as an arrow. Both for the most part seemed to get close to the pin but Phil couldn’t putt, Steve got close enough to make the ones that counted. The club was turning too fast to tell where they put it, but the difference in their demeanor was obvious.
I think a lot of what you have to teach so far, from what I have read, is great. But the difference is the mental game, at least on Sunday.
To Jim D,
If you are calling Steve Stricker’s swing as almost going to parallel, you and I don’t have the same definition of parallel.
Three quarters is 25 percent less than 100. If parallel to the ground is considered 100 percent of a backswing, than John Daly’s overswing is 125 percent plus. Steve Stricker short of parallel swing is by no means even anywhere near parallel by my standards and for that matter the standard of the vast majority of golfers, and is a perfect example of a 3/4 backswing.
The Surge!
RESPONSE TO DON’S NOTE (ABOVE)
Don,
I am quite certaiin that we BOTH know what parallel means and I do not believe that we have different definitions of parallel. I am looking at a picture on page 74 of the December issue of GolfDigest of Steve at the top of his backswing with a driver. Unless I am going blind I would say that this is much closer to being at parallel rather than the “perfect example of a 3/4 backswing” as you suggest. I have seen video of your swing and diagrams that you have made and Steve is taking the club back MUCH farther than this. Actually, I have seen pictures of Steve taking the club back even farther than in this picture.
Regards, Jim D.
Don,J.Griffin & Members,
Is the Downswing(upswing) motion a deliberate pulling motion back DOWN the toeline by the lead arm (as i’m lefthanded) to the vertical finish over my lead shoulder (not outside this lead shoulder)? or is this a balanced BOTH hands/arms movement (when & where?) or maybe just let it ALL just happen backdown the toeline to finish naturally without thinking too much about what is happenning as long as it comes down that toeline????..Help!
When & where does the Trail(back) hand AND arm? start to predominate in this downswing & is the motion of the back hand & forearm (both???) open to close in this motion during the hitting sequence to the finish?
AND
Do we as PPGS swingers(not hitters) ever ever need to think about late release or lag position of the hands to improve (or destroy) ball striking & distance as this theory is espoused by so many golf gurus & long ball gitters throughout the planet? I’m asking this as a reasonably good golfer that findsthis almost impossible to do or ever repeat in my swing without something going amiss in my transition to a balanced finish.
Don-
I hope I didn’t open a can of worms Bro. As I said in an earlier blog sometimes this gets as complicated as buying a new bowling ball. Please believe me when I say I am open minded minded and generally in agreement with you and J Griffin. Now I realize I have no credentials or stature in this arena other than calling myself a “student of the game”. But growing up out east and being 63 I have followed some of the greatest names in golf from Nicklaus, Snead, Palmer, Woods and many more. I was always a visual learner and I would position myself to study their swings and always their written words. A few years ago I began development of an idea that is quite different than anything on the market. It won’t be cheap but it will look at things uniquely. I suspect if my idea works you and I will partner in the future because my idea doesn’t care about “what” the swing looks like, only the data it creates in real time. Beyond this I need an “non-disclosure”. And I also apologize because this is your blog, not mine and I truly am only bantering because you have provided an excellent forum and seem to welcome open debate.
On the swing plane issue. Again I do not care what plane you swing on, only that the golfer is able to repeat it successfully time after time. Who knows, maybe some day the “Happy Gilmore” swing will be in vogue? I look at the swing plane as the path the “club” travels along. If you could swing in the dark with a glow stick on the end of your clubface what tracer would it make as it travels around your body? If that path is a consistent path (upright, flat, or inbetween) only matters if the club is traveling parallel to the target line with a square clubface at impact. And if Jim Furyk swings with loops and all can consistently return his club to square at impact that is a good thing. Now, most analysis I have seen will show the club at address and they always draw a line from the shaft going through the golfer’s body and extending to the top of the plane to show that the club path will intersect at that point. If the left wrist is flat and also on that plane the face is square. Most commentators (like Johnny Miller) will say this is an ideal position and refer to it as “on-plane”. The spine angle in relation to the arms swing better (and faster) if that angle is how God designed the human anatomy. Think softball pitcher vs hardball pitcher. Some angular motions works better than others but again, what matters in golf is not who hits it furthest but who hits it straightest. Everyone can see that Tiger has played better when he swings more under control and is not the longest anymore (but he can be when he wants to).
You may think I have been condescending or argumentative when I truly do not have that intention. I read all the swing theories and don’t have a horse in this race. My general impression is that the PPGS has many more admirers than detractors and if enough golfers can be helped in their health and enjoyment of this great game then you sir are deserving of of my congratulations! What people should understand is your swing methodology is designed to help the golfer play better as he ages. Not many hit it as far or accurately as they did when they were 25. I hate it that my 30 year old son hits it 80 yards past me so the only thing I can do is play smarter than him which I usually do. Which begs the question from J Griffin; If I am swinging in the mid 90’s and my son is around 110 plus given equal equipment should he be out-hitting me by that much??
Thanks Guys, I am with you.
Mark,
Honestly, quit thinking about it! Think of a whip. Do you move the middle of the whip? the end? Nope, you move the handle. Arms are the same thing. The bump starts the arms coming down, the shoulders continue them moving down, The foreams rotate the club head. The hand………, well, the hands hold the club. Rotation of the forearms correctly is called timing.
Thanks for the info, but I don’t have Vista or Windows 7, as a matter of fact I don’t have a glue what you’re talking about…ctrl+???
To all of the swing guru’s out there…I’ve played golf for a long time, about 40 years. I’ve seen up close and personal many golf swings, from Pro’s to high handicappers. I’ve played with golfers who had alful swings, but could shoot lights-out, money golfers, ready and able to relieve you of your hard earned cash!! I dressed well, had a good golf-swing, they all said so, and at the end of the day I was forking-out the cash because they had whipped my butt!! So much for being on plane and swinging purty!!
My assumption, relax and swing the club, stay balanced throughout the swing if you can, and putt and chip excellent. Focus on the short game, 100 yards out and proceed to the green, to include, sand play, flop-shots, pitches and chips from the 1st and 2nd cut, etc.
I can beat most of the Pro’s that give the expensive lessons…they don’t play very much and when they do, they want too many mulligans!!
By-the -way, as much as I can, I play the course as I find it, and the ball as it lies.
Now get out there and have some fun. :>)
Richard
This flat iron last a long time. I mean a long time, Ive had this flat iron for, you ready, 10 years. I did buy new CHI flat irons in between and they didnt last, I would always go back to this old faithul one. I did grow to not like the big iron. I am sure that Solan has changed it some, but this iron is well worth it.I just purchased this straightener last week n i have had the best results. I used to use a clothing iron to straighten my hair because it is so thick n curly but this actually works better so now my hair won’t be so dead!
Don & J Griffen,
If Steve Stricker’s swing is as bad as you critique it to be then why is he playing so well. Do you think that either one of you could come close to competing with him, or your son for all that it matters. Something just doesn’t add up that your system is the best and only way to hit a golf ball. I don’t think your ideas are bad but I don’t think they’re the only way.
hi don if i didnt hit fat irons id be playing of about ten
drivers fine.eny tips on that.
thanks.
Larry J. and to anybody else with an axe to grind,
First Larry, how’d I get brought in on anything to do with Stricker? I haven’t said a thing about Steve Stricker or his swing.
As for Don’s article, it was written, and long overdue in my book, because of the amount of questions regarding his swing being like the PPGS. If you’ve followed Don’s Blog at all then you must have seen numberous posts asking if Stricker used the PPGS swing.
So, Don decided to answer the question and show the similarities of his swing to the PPGS and where his swing is dramatically different. Now once did Don criticise him or his swing. As we all know, there is more than one way to get things done. However, even if there is more than one way to do something, there usually one that is better than the others. Not once has Don said his method is the only way to swing a golf club. But…..and it’s a big but……….it’s the only swing that is in harmony with the laws of physics and puts less stress and strain on the body. This was the whole birthing idea behind the PPGS. It allows individuals to play golf pain free and to not stress the body.
Ok, I’m off that band wagon and back on to the swing thing. With the things Stricker is doing right now, it takes a lot of work and timing to make it work. Anytime you create movement and angles it has to be undone exactly in order for the swing to work. So, the fact that he tilts his head forward and down on the back swing with the driver and gets a locked right leg is not good. It just isn’t. Right now it’s working for him but at some point when he’s just a bit off coming back down he’ll be out of position and he’s not going to drive the ball as well.
Have you ever thought why guys beat as many balls on the range as they do? Certainly it isn’t so that they can hit a particular shot or “get better”. Nope, their doing one thing and that’s repeating motion over and over and over to get the repetition and timing needed to make their swing. So, wouldn’t it make sense to simplify the swing as much as possible and have less angles and moving parts that all had to line up just so in order to hit the golf ball reasonably well?
Oops, got back on the band wagon. Back to the swing. So, Don was not taking shots at Stricker rather he was addressing questions that had been posed to him and explaining the differences. The things that he pointed out in his swing that are of concern are legitimate concerns and will need to be addressed at somepoint more than likely. Who knows, and certainly there’s no way to know when.
Jerry F,
Without knowing the exact club head speeds it difficult to say just how much he should be out driving you but it should be at least 50+ yards. You mention equal equipment. Not sure what you mean by that but if you mean you are both playing the same driver and same shaft there is part of the problem. No way should you both be playing the same shaft. If you are swinging at 95mph, you should get about 238 carry. Very rough estimate. You son, and I figure 115 mph, should be carrying the balll about 288. You both should not be playing the same ball either. Lots of things to consider and I don’t have enough info to go into a very detailed analysis.
J Griffin-
Hey, thanks for the return comment! I appreciate the insight on club fitting and type of ball as well. Years ago I played in an amateur event and was paired with Mike Bender who you may know (Mike Bender Golf Academy). Well, I had no idea who he was but he kept out driving me by a bunch. At the turn I ran into the club house and gave the pro a diatribe for selling me dead balls to which he apologized and gave me a new sleeve he just got in. I marched back to the 10th tee and proceeded to get out driven the remaining back nine. A lesson in humility. I found out some time later who Mike was and didn’t feel quite so bad. A year later Lonnie Neilson beat me by 12 strokes in a 54 hole event and I played my ass off. I had Fluff on my bag as he missed the cut. Fluff turned pro and went on to take 2nd that year at the Iowa Open and with $300 dollars I gave him went to the PGA School in Fla. but was still short money so decided to caddy for a few months to raise cash. He got out on tour and saw his competition and figured he could do better carrying clubs than swinging them and the rest is history.
BTW, I re-read Surge’s swing plane thingy he wrote back to me and after reading it for the fifth time it finally made some sense to me. My only suggestion would be to have him let you proof read his remarks before publishing. He knows what he is talking about but writes more like Tolstoy and maybe that’s where your readers (me too) are having the disconnects from time to time.
Thanks again guys!
Jerry F,
Mike could sure play though. He used to give the caddies fits in their year long matches and he’s also a prince of a guy.
J Griffin-
We played on the college golf team together. Mike was #1 and captain. He usually calls me after midnight at events the most memorable after Tiger won his first Masters. I’ll tell ya, when he retires he has enough great stories to fill an encyclopedia.
And another thing I can’t seem to let go. I ordered an Aldila shaft for and old club just to shorten it. The shaft is 46″ raw and instructions say don’t tip is and butt cut to length. It says nothing about adding weight to the head. How do they know what length I used. I just don’t think it is that critical.
Good article about Hireko at the PGA Merchandise show. They were the only club component company there and have been in business for 25 years. They have and online dynamic shaft fitting seminar tommorrow 2-3 pm est.
http://blog.hirekogolf.com/category/commentary/
Ronnie,
What the heck is the question? Aldila doesn’t care what you’re putting the club in. There are some shafts that you don’t tip but only butt cut to length. What has that got to do with weight? You still want the club to have a good playing weight.
I’m not a great swing analyst, i’m sorry but I see wrist cock in this video..what am I not getting in Don’sview of Strickers swing ?
Basil,
That subject has been discussed to death on here. If you are new, go up to seach box beside picture of DJ and type in wrist cock and you can read more on the subject than you’d ever want to know.
You can also google it. Do that and go to link for the pga and look at their definition and you’ll see that what you are calling wrist cock is wrist flexation.
J. I guess that is best left for a qualified clubfitter. Not a laymen like myself. I was just playing around with and old club. It does seem to me the instructions for trimming would say to add x amount of weight per 1/2″ butt cut to retain a playing weight to get you in the ballpark. Thanks, and that reinforces the fact I know nothing about it.
Ronnie,
What the heck is the question? Aldila doesn’t care what you’re putting the club in. There are some shafts that you don’t tip but only butt cut to length. What has that got to do with weight? You still want the club to have a good playing weight.
Ronnie,
What I was getting at is that the shaft could be used for a driver , 3 wood, 5 wood, 7 wood, etc so they can’t really tell you what to do weight wise in order to achieve what you may desire as the finished playing weight as there is no standard for head weight either. The canundrum is that if you are taking a driver and going to make it short yet you want it to have about the same SW as if it was longer, you have to obviously add weight. Add enough weight and you have to consider tipping as you maybe getting close to a 3 wood weight for example. You’d then have to trim the shaft as if you were building a 3 wood and not a driver. There are a few shafts out there that you don’t tip at all and apparently you got one. So, there is an accepted unit of measure for length and SW. For each 1/2″ you cut, you loose 3 SW points. One SW point is equal to approximately 2 grams. 1 gram of wide lead tape is 1″. So, if you want to put back SW, for each 1/2″ you cut, you’d put 6 grams of weight or about 6″ of lead tape.
To Mr. J Griffin and Ronnie
Enjoyed the discussion on the driver shaft; however I have a question. I’m looking at a component catalog for an Adila shaft .335 stating the weight is 60 grams and 46″ long; meaning that there is approximately .65 grams per 1/2″ of shaft (60gr/46″/2). so if one removes 1/2″ from the butt end of the shaft, why wouldn’t adding .65 grams of weight to the butt get the club back to the approximate SW one started with?
Also would anyone even notice the difference with .65 grams removed from the butt end?
Don
I recently read about Jesper Parneviks injury. Do I understand PPGS right that injurys like that can be avoided using PPGS?
It is a great daily reading, and I thank you for it.
Karl
J. Ok, buddy I now understand. The shaft says don’t tip driver but tip trim 1″ for fairway woods. In the case of TM burner specs the 3 wood is 43″ which is just 1″ shorter than I planned on making the driver so it appears tipping some is necessary. This is not an exact science since I am playing around with an older clubhead just to check accuracy. I won’t bug you about this anymore, however I did carry this post over to Don’s article today so just overlook it.
SteveS. Golfsmith and pobably many others sells butt plug weights. Although I know nothing about this.
Tour Lock Pro Weight — 30 gr:
Obviously, there have been lots of advances in club technology in the past 25 years. One of the most recent is strategic weight placement, and studies show that when the proper weight is utilized in the grip, overall perfomance improves. Back-weighting a club has been around for a while now, and the grip itself is, in essence, a backwieght, but it’s never been easier than using the Tour Lock system.
Tour Lock Pro technology has made back-weighting easier and more efficient by allowing players to easily adjust the feel and performance of any club by adding the optimal weight to each club in their bags. Choose your weight, install and hit the course!
Steve S,
It would be too involved to try and explain what swingweight is and the properties but I will address one assumption that you’ve made and that was to suggest the each section of a shaft weighs the same. This would impossible unless the shaft was uniformly cylindrical. Since a shaft is tapered and has varying wall thickness, you mathmatical calculations are incorrect. I suggest you google swingweight and read up on it if you are truly interested in understanding it better.
Tony,
The NXT would be ok but with your speed you could certainly play one of the higher end spin balls. You wouldn’t necessarily want the firm of the tour balls unless you generate too much spin now.
Don
I purchased your video and really enjoy your pihlosophy and swing technique, as I have a very bad back ,but love the game. I would love to be able to see the ideal swing being taught in
slow motion so I can get a better mental picture. of the swing. Also, I would like to purchase the DVD copy so I can watch on my TV while exercising.
Can you help me with these two things ?
I have had your tape series a long time (VHS) from when you were on Golf Channel Academy.That being said have you gave any thought to putting your email tips on a podcast. I believe it would create a lot of interest on Itunes or just an MP3 download..