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WOW! The fairway iron problem article yesterday turned into being a treasure trove of good comments and questions. I have set aside 2 or 3 really good questions to be used for the topic for one of these daily articles. For today, I will feature a question/comment relative to poor fairway iron play from yesterday for more emphasis and coverage. Thom’s comment the problems (which are absolutely correct) of golfers he plays with who hit the smorgasbord of bad fairway iron shots, needs to be highlighted and expanded on.
thom says:
Don,
hmmmm … not sure about this one boss … I have lots of duffing friends and I’m no golf pro, but the one thing I see all the time from those who hit awful iron fairway shots (push, pulls, scuffs, tops, chunks, flares, etc.) is SWAY … big SWAYING action that the whole body back over the right foot (if he’s right handed). It pulls the pendulum out of line and now no two swings (sways) are ever the same – therefore, every shot is different. Fairway woods are easier to hit because they’re more forgiving and force people to swing slower from shorter distances. Not saying, just saying it’s possible.
I don’t comment because I’m not a teaching pro and I don’t believe people should correct swings unless they’re on the driving range – there are a few exceptions to that with lower handicapper close friends who understand it, in which case “swing in the barrel” usually tightens up the sway and corrects it quickly.
Love the column brother,
Thom
The Surge says:
Thom, you are spot on with your observations that many golfers’ myriad of bad shots are the result of swaying big time. I overlooked this big time problem because I was wearing blinders in my thought process. I was addressing Bob’s issues first because he was hitting his fairway woods OK. And, because of that, from the standpoint that he was using the PPGS wide knees with outward pressure setup and resisting his forward knee and foot in the backswing (your reference to swinging in the barrel),swaying would not be a big issue.
Big time swaying usually is the result of golfers reaching back for the big turn backswing to get the power they have been told comes from the big turn windup. To get the big turn, they lift the front foot and kick the front knee inward so they can turn more and wind up for that power. Add to that swinging to parallel or longer and the spine is moving like a tree swaying in a hurricane. They not only sway back and forth but also can have a lot of up and down due to the lifting of the front foot and it having to get replanted in the transition.
The problem for them is that with their front foot up and knee inward, their feet foundation contact to the ground is not stable. Then, when they sway too far to the back foot their spine or pendulum, as you say, is pulled out. Now their balance mechanism (Balance Buddy “BB” as I call it) kicks in to take control to keep them standing up and not falling down. The Key here is that the Balance Buddy does not care about them hitting the shot well. The BB’s only concern is keeping them in standing. And to do that the BB sets in motion all the compensations and corrections needed to maintain standing and balance. Many times, despite all efforts of the BB, the player’s sway is so bad he still falls or steps out of the shot, one way or another, to remain vertical. Unfortunately, the Balance Buddy’s assistance in most cases does not help or assist in good ball striking and hitting a good shot.
These instinct-generated compensations and corrections are a major dilemma to most golfers because they just happen without any mental input by them. Many times golfers say their practice swings were perfect but they can’t do it with their real swing. That is because, for starters, their practice swing was just that, a practice swing and not likely at full power and thus remains somewhat in balance. Then, and most importantly, there is no hitting a ball in the practice swing. The problem is not so much the swing as it is the ball. Why?
The practice swing without a ball has no reference to target as a priority. Add the target and ball to the equation and power up with the front foot lifting and knee kicking in and the real swing is a completely different event. It becomes a speeding car out of control and needing the brakes to be applied by the Balance Buddy to maintain balance and control.
Thanks, Thom, for your good observations and comments. You were a good “Teaching Pro” yesterday, relaying good information in your comment. I am sure what you wrote helped a lot of readers yesterday, as will my additions today.
The Surge!
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Is there a good instructor in the Boca Raton area?
Two questions. First, how do you maintain a good, reliable golf swing while working full time? Second, why is it that my actual golf game does not mirror my practice sessions, which I take very seriously. My family all play golf, some at a high level. I practiced so much in anticipation of the Thanksgiving holiday and played only 1 out of 5 solid rounds…..that is in the 80’s. Yeah, one course was new and another I hadn’t played for awhile, but still. Help, Christmas is coming.
i would like to ask about a lie problem maybe with my clubs . i hit just about everything on the toe with a little face . most shots are weak fades as i call them . i have been told i cut across the ball and this causes the problem not a lie angle. i really try to visualize your up the tree method. maybe my release is not good . then one will tell me to stand closer to the ball , then one will tell me to take the club back more inside . it seems when i do this i really cut across the ball . as you can tell i need some thought from you on this matter . thanks
Hi Don,
I’m a 9 handicap wanting to get to a 5. I’ve been working hard on my driving and my short game.
I can now give myself a good chance to hit greens in regulation and my question relates to the short game and how to get more accuracy into the greens
I have 4 wedges…PW, GW, SW and a LW. I have 3 swings for each club at 1/2, 3/4 and full swings from within 100 metres.
What do you think of gripping down an inch or two to become more accurate with these clubs. I want to be able to put it nearer the flag or in the best postition to achieve a birdie or par.
Also, should my finish be a full finish or should it match my takeaways with my 1/2, 3/4 of full swing takeaway?
Cheers
I have noticed that the swaying issue seems to be quite often made more serious by standing with a stance that is too wide for irons. I have been guilty of this myself. When you are hitting your driver with a stance just outside your shoulders, then switch to a fairway iron, it is easy to forget to narrow your stance accordingly.
When I try to hit a long fairway iron with a wide stance, I have trouble with swaying off the ball and sometimes hitting fat due to moving my spine behind the ball in the backswing. When I remember to narrow my stance, it is MUCH more difficutl to sway off the ball and better striking is MUCH more likely.
Just a quick thought on this issue. I know that many good tee shots have been ruined by fat irons that follow. My experience tells me that others may have made the same error (accidently) and kept a wide stance for the approach shot and ended up very disappointed with the final result.
Hope this helps! Thanks for the input from all your experience and expertise!
Michael, the reason Don does not have to practice a lot is the utter simplicity of the PPGS. The forearm rotation into the mitt along with the lifting turns the body to the 3/4 position. This keeps the head from rotating away from the target line so he is always facing it in a parallel manner. Being vertical on the back swing lets the arms fall down in front of his body after starting the down swing by the hip bump. The only thing to practice is timing and if the back swing is correct it should take 5 or 6 swings to start dialing it in.
Hey there Surge and Thom;
Have recently reduced the sway a little, by narrowing my stance and I seem to have some less pain in the lower back-which is good.
On the other hand, I have been a ’swayer’ for years and iron shots have been the strong part of my game.
So, if I may… I see the swaying (I believe) all the time, but the problem seems to be more of no weight shift forward after loading the back foot. In addition, I see folks with a stance that is too narrow and a take-a-way that goes up the tree, but not in the mitt. The straight up and down swing seems to narrow the hitting area. Any error with ‘looking up early” (I never do this- ha! ), is a chunk, whiff or thin.
The best advice I ever got from my College Golf Coach (Ed Bilik) was to hit the ball with my practice swing.
It took years of pracitice but now I realize how true that comment can be.
I am a student of your PPGS and wanted to thank you on how much better my game has become. Two questions I have for now is: when I start the back swing, for some reason, I hesitate a split second before I go up the tree. I believe it is supposed to be just one motion, correct? Also, how far do I go back to the cathers mitt before I start up the tree? I have been doing it right after I have rolled my arms which is a little past my right toe. Is this correct? Thanks
William Smith ( Smitty )
DeWitt, Iowa
If you want to eliminate sway, practice this at the practice range.
Stand with your left foot precisely in front of the right foot (Right handed golfer). Hit balls with your seven iron. Don’t fall over. You will immediately see, also, that you have corrected any tendency to have too long of a backswing since if you try to turn too much, you will fall over.
HI DON ,I ENJOY YOUR SITE, BEEN USING IT FOR FREE,, I FEEL BAD ABOUT THAT BUT COME JAN. IM GONNA PAY ATTENTION, IM 72 YRS OLD AND FEEL I SHOULD BE ABOUT
A 16 HANDCAP, RITE KNOW IM A 25, DUE TO SOME BACK PROBLEMS, THANKS FOR YOUR INSTRUCTION,YOU ARE HELPING A LOT OF PEOPLE, YOUR METHOD IS STARTING TO SINK IN
THANKS FRANK
I have been having a lot of trouble with my irons this summer. I have been hitting the ground at lot
this summer and when I do it deadens my shot due to a bad right shoulder, that I can’t get a real good swing with. I lost the mussel in my right shoulder due the auto wreck.
I think the suggestions that have been posted the last two days will help me lot on these cow pastures that we play around our town. If you have any suggestions on my game that might help me, please coment.
Thanks Curtis
My problems with my irons isn’t a sway. To start my swing I make sure my knee is solid and I pinch it in just before and during my backswing so I don’t sway. If I don’t do this I can turn my hips 68 degrees which causes all sorts of problems. I pick the ball so my attempt to hit up through the ball into a T finish is causing my problem. This could be due to the fact that I don’t do the bump yet so my lower body probably isn’t moving forward to keep the low point of the swing moving forward through the ball. The reason I don’t do the bump yet is I can’t hit the ball when I do it. For some reason I can’t hit the ball when trying to do the bump. I can hit the ball somewhat by straightening my left leg which kind of does the same thing but that isn’t the PPGS. Right now I’m in swing thought hell, don’t know what to use. lol
Hi Don.
Like many of those who have commented about the ’swaying’ and other issues (which I’m slowly but assuredly adressing) related to this wonderful pastime of pleasure and (groan) at times frustration, I have another problem that has been bugging me for a while. I have ‘oversized irons and have been asked to get new ones that, when I looked over them seemed rather small – from the 4 – 9; the S/PW’s are fine. Can you please explain what difference the smaller ‘heads’ will do to the ‘oversized’ heads? Since my last comment I have practiced on most of the things you have said. sometimes they work and sometimes not. But I’m happier than I was some months back. Your advice, comment would certainly help.
Cheers adn ahve a merry xmas.
Kahu
Don, I am having a difficult time catching on to PPGS. I am 75 years old and play senior softball. on a traveling tournament team and can still hit the softball hard and long. The reason I mention this is because I believe it is the problem with my golf swing. I make the nice slow proctice swing, but with the ball in front of me I can’t resist the urge to HIT and lurch with my shoulders. This results in a variaty of pulled shots. Just like my old over the top swing, except shorter shots. Possibly my problem is not bumping my hips prior to the downswing. I will continue to look through your videos for drills to eliminate my upper body action.
i was a big time swayer until i watdhed ernie ells and fred couple on shell’s wonderful world of golf and noticed neither of them sway and have great smoth. powerful stroked. I am working on it now –thanks for the reminder jedoherty
Surge, what drills can you suggest to hold the lag?
I also believe this early release is causing problems in hitting the ball fat with my irons.
New Seabury, Cape Cod. Come on down !!
Jason F
To Gary,
I have a similar way of making my wedge shots work from different yardages under 100 yards (in my case). I have a PW, SW and LW and 4 back swing lengths. I don’t like to choke up on the clubs too much but I have a thought that works for me. I make sure I accelerate through the ball after I throttle the swing on the back swing. I probably follow through a bit further then the length of my back swing. My 3/4 back swing probably ends up close to a full follow through due to the acceleration for example. I have a card where I have written down my distances through the air with my 12 shots… it works pretty well.
Best regards, Kent
Have been attempting to use your system for 2 weeks with little success until I decided to forget everything else and just concentrate on getting the swing in line and in front of my feet line. Suddenly found I was hitting my irons straight and cleanly. Will continue to concentrate on this until it is bedded in and then attempt to check other aspects. Should have used the ” keep it simple stupid” doctine from the start!
Only problem now is my driver. I have gone from driving 250 yards with about 85% on the fairway, to all over the place, mainly slicing and achieving 200 yards at best. Any suggestions?
Bill
Hey Surge, one of the pointers you gave to your Jr. blueprint students really helped me and may help others as relates to moving off the ball or”SWAYING” . You recomended a way to know if we are keeping our head still and not reverve tilting or swaying or dipping is to see if the ball appears to move during the swing. For example if the ball movesforward in our vision in the back swing we have moved back. If the ball moves back as we swing back, our head moved forward during the backswing and that is reverse swaying (or reverse tilting). Also if the ball gets bigger we’ve dipped closer, smaller- we stood up, you get the drift. As Surge then added, unless there is an earthquake during the swing, the ball does not move, we do! The point was, notice this subtle movement as you swing to see if you keep you head quiet and still.
This was one of the important points that helped me shoot 39 for nine holes the other day. Best score in 30 years. If you haven’t (and you are an inner circle member) watch this and another 4 hours of amazing teaching on the Jr. Blueprint Videos, listed under “products for those who did survey last week.
While I am sure that there is probably more than one cure needed for the many who are not hitting their irons cleanly, the one thing that I have addressed when struggling with this problem in the past is to be sure to make a good transition from the top of the swing to the completion of the swing as hanging back on your right leg creates problems that cause us to hit the ball fat, thin and otherwise poorly, the proper hip movement is crucial in making a good transition of your weight, the hip should drive up and around, if you watch the surge and DJ’s video swings, it will show what I am speaking of, if you concentrate on making this work properly, I think that many of the problems spoken of here will disappear and you will begin to develop confidence in your ability’s to strike the ball cleanly with your irons.
Happy Golfing
Ken
AN EXERCISE TO PREVENT SWAYING
Go to the practice tee and place a golf ball under the outside of your right foot in front of your heel(if you are right-handed) and then hit some balls. The ball under the foot will prevent you from swaying and it will solve a lot of problems.
Happy golfing!
my iron shots are ok but i have a bad slice with my driver and 3 wood,by the way i am 71 years young and enjoying my golf again.
“SWINGING AROUND YOUR CERVICAL SPINE IS NOT SWAYING”
The famous instructor Jimmy Ballard got an improper bad rap for allegedly teaching what many of you refer to as “swaying” when moving the “meat” of your body (which is all the portion of the upper body in front of your spine) over your back foot at the finish of the backswing, This is not swaying at all.
Picture the cervical vertabrae (upper 5 neck vertabrae in your spine) as the axis of your swing. Now if, as Jack Nicklaus (among many others) proved, you need to turn around this axis. This IS NOT A SWAY BECAUSE YOU NEVER MOVE THE CERVICAL AXIS OF YOUR SWING except to rotate it. Use your cameras. Play your swing back on your TV. Starting with your address, put a “dot” with a marker on the cervical axis (back of your neck). If you are swinging properly, you can turn everything in front of the cervical axis (the body “meat”) back over your rear leg (right leg for right handed golfers), without moving your cervical axis off the ball or back towards the right foot. You have held position relative to the ball with your stable cervical axis.
This is consistent with the Surge’s PPGS even if you only take the 70% turn. But please try to understand this is not a sway! It is swinging around the cervical axis, rather than the entire spine. This promotes the PPGS “mitt and tree” vertical swing. But it does not limit you to just swinging your arms. Swinging around your cervical spine increases your power. You are simply turning around your cervical spine. Watch Jack’s swing, this is what he did. Tiger and many other great players agree you have to get your body mass (”meat”) over your rear leg on the backswing to get your potential power.
I hope this helps clear that swinging your body vertically around your cervical spine is not swaying.
I am an 83 old addicted to golf with a 18 hdc.Four years ago I was a 8 or 9. My problem is loss of distance and not completing my backswing. Thanks for any suggestions you may have.. Larry
Hey Surge,
I’m 67 and the PPGS seems to be what I am looking for. Have been practicing it for a couple of weeks now. It took a while to catch on to the ‘catchers mitt & up the tree’ but it works. I still have a mental problem with the direction of my divots. They go to the left of my target line and I think they shouild be straight down the line – right? Now the ball goes straight but I still must be losing distance if the divot goes to the left. Can you comment on this.
Thanks for PPGS,
Joe
I have been trying your system for a week now (I am a 9 trying to get lower) here in the Hilton Head area and am having problems with my irons. I am hitting the driver and all woods including hybrids extremely well and they are going much more consistently towards the target with a slight draw. The issue occurs with my irons in that they are traveling dead on line to my target but with a loss of distance of almost 1 club! I have narrowed my stance and the only feedback I can give you is that I feel that I am coming “up and out of it” and that my ball position may be off? Thanks for your help.
David
I am very interested in attending your next swing class session or school, what are the dates for that and location, thanks
IS A GOLFER ONLY AS GOOD AS THE TOOLS HE USES AS LIKE MANY JOBS.DO BETTER CLUBS MAKE A DIFFERENCE TO YOUR GAME
MOVING YOUR HEAD AND BODY AROUND THE CERVICAL (NECK) SPINE AS THE “AXIS” OF YOUR SWING WILL ALLOW YOU TO INCREASE YOUR POWER.
Having established that turning around your stable (except for its rotation) cervical spine as an axis for the swing is not swaying and keeps the relationship between the ball and your cervical spine constant until after impact, as I discussed in my earlier comment today, I would like to address another area of widespread misunderstanding about distance. Everyone wanto to believe tyhat clubhead speed is all that matters in achieving distance. This is not true! What really matters is “CONNECTED FOOT POUNDS AT IMPACT.” What this means is how much of your body weight do you have behind the ball at impact? Just the weight of your arms? Or the weight of your whole body? There have been many a competitor at long drive competitions who loses to someone with slower clubhead speed. And they are both hitting it on the center of the face and on the proper swing path. The difference is, and this is for all of you who wonder why Don’s swing is costing you distance, that you are not getting the benefit of all your body mass behind the ball. Anyone who trys to keep their head still in the swing can’t help but reverse their spine angle in the backswing if their hips move back at all. This is what causes all your problems. If however, you are swinging around your cervical spine as the axis of your swing, you can pivot your head and your body over your back leg without swaying off the ball. Then you have the benefit of hitting the ball with all your weight instead of just the weight of your arms, The shots hit with this method even sound different. They explode off the club and fly straight as an arrow.
I advocate the Surge’s PPGS vertical swing. I just think there is some confusion as to what the AXIS of the swing is and that you can pivot your head and body around the cervical axis without coming off the ball (swaying) at all. I hope this helps clear up some confusion.
One note of further clarification. If you do the PPGS correctly you should not need to “get behind the ball” as the set up favors the PLHR (pre load heavy right) with a slight tilt. This one position alone sets you with the necessary amout of weight on the right side and it then becomes a rather simple matter of the limited 3/4 rotation and lift. The lower body can remain relatively quiet as any lateral movement and minimal rotation. A true sway constitutes a lateral hip movement to the extent that the weight is shifted outside the back foot. For new students of the PPGS, the narrower stance requires that you pre load on the right side and limit lower body activity
Craig,
The simple short answer is YESSSSS!
The silliest example would be to give a right handed player a left hand set of clubs and see how he does. Not the right equipment! So, more subtle things such as length, lie angle, weight, shaft frequency, club MOI, head design, etc. etc. would have a bearing on the game of an individual. It’s not so much the better clubs, it’s the having clubs that “fit” you that’s the important consideration.
I loved hearing golfers say that they were going to wait until they got better to get clubs that were fit to them. My question is how do you hope to get better if you are playing clubs that are totally unfit for you? The game is hard enough without fighting the equipment too. If you’d like the name of a qualified fitter/builder in your area, just let me know where and I’ll give you some names.
I live in Australia and work away for 2 weeks I then get 2 weeks off so try and play as much golf as possible. I have been playing now for over 12 months and have had lessons. I take a lesson now when I feel I am struggling with something. When I tee off I have the problem of sending the ball straight then it goes of to the right?
The problem is when you get it right you forget what you have just done so next time you tee up you forget where your stance ball placement etc was and then you get the hook shot?
Have you any answer to this
To Griffin
That was an excellent, professional response to Craig. You are at your best when you counsel others on golf club fitting. And that was an amazing original statement, one I’ve never had anyone espouse before: “…I loved hearing golfers say that they were going to wait until they got better to get clubs that were fit to them. My question is how do you hope to get better if you are playing clubs that are totally unfit for you? The game is hard enough without fighting the equipment too.”
You go, boy!
HEY! LOOK HERE! IMPORTANT!
To All Of My On-Line Colleagues
When I started a year ago learning about the PPGS methodology, I never anticipated such a collective interest and such a collective acceptance of “The Gospel According To The Surge,” Lol!
In the spirit of this holiday season, I would like to compliment and acknowledge the brilliant and insightful swing information shared on this site by individuals brilliant and insightful!
In recognition of outstanding posters, the honor role listing is as follows….
“Mr. Chief Justice” Warren, Craig “I’m really 64” 63, Ken “The Gem” Genz, “Golfing Jones” GJ, “Ms Master Teacher“ Pamela, “Famous” Amos Terrell, “Handy” Randy S, Jim ”I Know How To Read” D, Tom “7-10 Split” Daugherty, Charlie “Rose,“ Ronnie “The Analyzer” Mc Curry, “Words Are Us” Stretch C, Michael “The SwingArch Angel,” John “Never” OB, Harry “Don’t Call Me Hairy” Thompson, Randy “The Dandy” Beckett, Jimsha, and Ken “When?” (Do we play)!
And last but not least, as regards the anatomy and physiology of all golf club implements, special commendation to the Master Club Fitter and Builder, J Griffin.
Together we have formed a PPGS resource team second to none! An investigative body sensitive to the pitfalls of the big muscle rotary swing of yesterday. Ours is a research body ever cognizant and watchful of PPGS interpretation inaccurate and misleading. And I also want to recognize those who have joined me since the first of the year in a crusade to vanquish those pathetic miscreant hackers whose sole existence in life is to disparage innovation and ridicule innovators. It now appears in the last few months, the instigators themselves have been vanquished into a well deserved oblivion. Amen!
MERRY CHRISTMAS !!!