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One piece takeaway or two, asks Phil. His bigger question is how can he make a smooth backswing when he has to change direction in mid-stream in the back swing after lifting the club into the catcher’s mitt. Let’s take a stab at it.
Phil says:
I am a little confused with your takeaway (into the catchers mitt) and then vertical to the top of your backswing. That appears to be a two piece take-a-away (a mid-course change of direction). Please correct me if I am wrong. If not, please tell me or show me how I make a smooth backswing when I have to change my direction mid-stream!
The Surge says:
The PPGS takeaway into the catcher’s mitt is a one piece move. The square of the torso (shoulders to hips) sets the triangle of the shoulder and arms into motion, with the back hip and shoulder pulling in a slight turn and moving in sync. The key is that this in-sync torso and triangle movement starts the club head in motion (in sync) with them, with the sense and feeling that the toe of the club moves first and moves toe up. The club head is moved by the arms and hands lifting it, with the both arms and hands lifting from the shoulder sockets. This is how we lift with no wrist cocking and thus maintain the wrist angle set at address.
The Foundation Swing Manual on page 97 in the section titled “Takeaway & Turn states in a note: “Good wrist action is no wrist action. Do everything you can to maintain the wrist angle you established at setup. A swing thought to remember is the backswing is a little bit of turn and a lot of lift.” Point #2 in describing the takeaway says: “lift the arms from the shoulders like throwing a ball. This lifts the club in a CURVED Arc to the 9 o’clock position.”
The important words in the takeaway description are “a lot of lift” and “in a CURVED Arc.” A secondary good set of words is “like throwing a ball.” When we throw a ball, we lift the arm and hand from the shoulder socket in one smooth motion. The lift is an upward sweeping motion in the shape of a sharply rising arc. The takeaway into the mitt and up the tree is exactly this same upward sweeping arc, all done in a one piece arc, smooth and sweeping upward and all in one direction…up.
I think the concept of the initial lift into the catcher’s mitt and then lifting up the tree can be visualized as a two piece move. Lifting first into the mitt, then lifting more sharply up the tree, can create a sense, image and feeling of the up the tree being more squared off. A sharp squared off lift after the mitt would feel like an angle change of more up and thus the feeling of a two piece takeaway and upswing.
The fact is that from the first movement of lifting the arms, hands and club, they are all lifting in one direction and one direction only, and that is UP. They are lifting up into the mitt and passing right straight through, with no hesitation or stopping. The only thing happening is that the lifting gets a little steeper but stays smooth because the upswing stays in the “shape of an arc.” This is the same feeling as throwing a ball and skipping a rock on a lake. The hand sweeps back a little up as it moves away from the body and then the big sharp up sweep of the hands to the top of the throwing position.
The entire takeaway to the top of the backswing is a one piece move because it is a complete upward sweeping arc in one direction, right through the mitt and up the tree to a ¾ thumbs 12:00 o’clock vertical club.
The Surge!
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I don’t know if this will help some but I have found it useful to think of ringing a bell that is at the top of my back swing as apposed to up the tree. for me its easier to think mitt-bell-mitt. we all have to find what thoughts work for us. thanks for your time and efforts to help all of us have fun playing golf.
I’m losing everything to the right of target. a slight fade, am I not squaring the face?
In noticing D.J.’s swing . . . he swings more like I do, with a wrist break at takeaway. Why are you advocating no break when I noticed D.J. doing it?
The videos show that both you and DJ have very quick hands. The average golfer will never get back to square at your swing speeds. I’d like to know what both swing speeds average if you would reveal? The problem that a shortened backswing brings is the transition to the downswing. In both the Surge and DJ’s you can notice a slight “wave” or “flip” at the top. Both are vaguely similar to Sergio Garcia at the top, although Sergio takes the club much further back. If you have ever seen “Fluff” Cowan’s (Furyk’s caddie) he swings much as Serge does. Tiger’s swing almost stay’s perfectly on-plane even during transition as does Phil, Anthony Kim and others. The difficulty for the amateur in the transition is keeping the club on-plane and square. My point here is this; the better golfer can make an accommodation or correction before impact to bring the club back to square and on-plane but the lesser golfer will usually pull across the plane with an open face. In reading the many posts I continue to observe that common problem, i.e. hitting thin shots with the ball going right. In the old days many greats like Snead would have a slight pause at the top but your videos show quite the opposite. Most high handicappers cannot master the quick transition with a shortened backswing and should program in a micro second of pause or they will inevitably be prone to hitting from the top in the effort to “catch up” with the body. Many of your readers also complain of lost distance with your program as well. This is probably true since a shortened backswing will generally not generate as much clubhead speed. I have gone to an abbreviated backswing myself and can attest to losing distance but my accuracy has greatly improved. I simply take more club and swing easier. It appears to me that the Surge is swinging in excess of 100 MPH which is much faster than 99% of guys his age and obviously DJ must be above 115 MPH to be competitive on tour.
Pay for the trip and I’ll beat that guy’s stone skipping record. I used to do that over 50 years ago and thought nothing of it; or at least, no-one was there to see it; trust the “Yanks” to turn it into an event – LOL !
Surge
I have a question. If I line up to the ball center on the club face I hit it on the toe.
Way out on the toe. If I line way back to the rear of the club I can come closer
to center. What is wrong in my swing to cause this? Any help you could give me
would be great.
Bob
The explanation of the takeaway to the catchers mit and up the tree seemed overly simplistic when I first heard it. I am a 3.5 index, but have a back problem. I tried the swing on the range and was astonished how effective it is. I noticed two things – first, I was striking the ball more cleanly with a shallow divot, and second, getting slightly longer distance but the bandwidth of landing area narrowed….plus…no back pain. First time on the course I shot an easy 75. The fun part was I was able to increase the club head speed without getting out of tempo because the swing is so repeatable without torqueing my back. Thanks, Rob
Surge
I have been trying to use your swing on the program. I seem to hit to the left when
I use the upright swing. Looks like a draw.
Bob
Hey Don I have a question about equipment. I notice most drivers out there when viewed from the top have a curved face. If I’m not mistaken, the only way to truly hit it dead straight would be to contact the ball dead center of the sweet spot. I just think it would be a lot easier for us high handicappers to hit straight if the club face was flat also. I’ld like to hear your thoughts on this.
Thanks Don.
Surge,
Here’s a link to the great Ben Hogan on the Ed Sulivan show. The first part shows he is not the Ice man he was represented as and the end of video shows a technique for the one piece take-away. A good video.
http://www.instantgolflesson.com/Ben-Hogan-Golf-Swing-Video.php
Don
Hi Surge:
Are there other pros on tour using the PPGS swing other that DJ?
Walt
Surge,
I agree with Don & Jerry… It would appear that DJ does, in fact, cock his wrists at take away. Not as radical as Nancy Lopez used to do but certainly there. My question is; does that wrist cock have anything to do with the increased club head speed at impact? Thus the statement, “quick hands.” Club head speed at impact is a huge key to distance so it seems logical.
I’ve struggled with getting back to square also as many shots end up in weak fades. While I’m certain that a shorter back swing is appropriate, particularly for those of us with back pain issues, these attempts have caused me to swing outside in and across the target line. Perhaps, as suggested above, a short pause would help to start the down swing from the ground (not over the top) in order to get on the correct plane and bring the club back to square at impact. Your thoughts would be appreciated.
Jim
Hi Surge, I understand and practice the catchers mitt and up the tree. However can you explain the stone skipping over the water. ie do you guide the club with the left arm/hand and hit the ball with your right hand flicking it like you would throwing a stone to skim it over water?
Thanks for your help.
Thanks Jerry Foley,
You further explain the question I raised a few weeks ago about the transition and downswing and that Don answered. The transition from take away and “set” to downswing, I think, is the most difficult part of the swing for amateurs, whether one is using PPGS or not. I know I have trouble with it, often “jumping” at the ball from the top to try to generate the speed I see in swings like Don’s and DJ’s, resulting sometimes in “casting” the club or “spinning” my shoulders and hips left (I’m a righty) to cause an “over the top” effect. The problem of staying on plane and under control while starting the downswing and speeding up through it is not inconsiderable. So I too would like to see Don address that problem a little more. Does everything move in sync from the 12 oclock position at the top (hands, arms, hips, legs), or do the legs and hips lead? What are some good cues for making the transition from up to down, for getting started down and staying under control?
Hello
I live in waaay up in Northern Ontario and there will not be a golf course open for about 5-6 months and I doubt I will be going anywhere south to play this year. (just got married)
I just begain the DVD series and I am sure that this is going to make golf fun again.
My question is; what exercises/swings could I do while inside the house? We live in a tight apartment and my wife has already banned my from the dining room (apparantly its not OK to knock over the new clock). And outside is not an option -23 this week with 12 inches of snow on Wednesday.
Any help would be great!!
Jim K
There is no wrist cock in DJ’s swing. His angle of wrist and club are set at address with a fairly flat wrist. There is no intentional cocking during his or Don’s swing. There is ARM ROTATION as they move into a toe up position “into the catchers mit”. During the split second of transition from top of the swing as they move down it may look like there is a wrist cock. There is none. It is centrifical forces giving that appearance. Watch DJ and Don in the bonus video and you’ll see and understand this “arm rotation better”. Of course you will need to buy the program to see it.
Down the middle,
Robert
Don,
In another blog you stated the swing with irons and woods was the same. Yet the videos show the swing as described with the irons and hybrids but the woods were swung back in a more traditional manner. Am I seeing this wrong?
Hi Surge and all at PPGS.
Walt Dobbs asked on the 7th Dec if any other pros use the PPGS. I live in the UK but saw a lot of coverage on Sky TV the Ledbank Trophy in South Africa at the weekend. I watched the winner Robert Allenby very closely and I am sure he uses a close version of the PPGS. The Ledbank is a top event and Allenby won against Svenson on the 3rd play-off hole. Goosen was third.
I’m having great fun using the PPGS and when I get it right during the whole round I really enjoy a better standard than my 17 handicap. Now getting used to being called a bandit!
Now 73 with two hip replacements (due to my misspent youth on the badminton court) but really enjoying my golf and your e-mail & blogs. Carry on with the good work Surge and your team.
I noticed DJ swinging on a Wilson Staff promo video today on the web. Regards Bill Havers
I can not get the distance I feel I am capable off. When i try to kill it, I go right with a big hook and as i back off it reduces to a fade. I have been told I am flipping my wrists and opening the club face. (I am right handed) When i reduce my swing to a three quarter swing I hit it straight but lose distance. How can I correct this situation to hit farther but stay straight?
I have to agree about the comments with D.J
It appears or maybe it’s an illusion, that D.J breaks his wrist immedietly during the take away and opens the clubface.
Your swing Surge seems to be more one piece than D.J’s.
Can you explain this for me as I had a lesson many years ago that messed my game, when a golf pro said that I had to take the club away by opening the face.
Hey,
I am serious about the stone-skipping; I’m nearly 70 and I can still do it, with ease. If I can’t beat 42 skips I can get damn near to it !!!
I have adopted your swing and it starts to feel good. (Left handed player) When I bump my weight to the right first and then turn very little, then swing. Boy that ball takes off like a shot goes long and straight. the problem is I am not swing through the target line. It’s like hitting a baseball to right field. When I put both together next year. Watch out.
I am enjoying the videos so far and will continue them until I have completed the series.
I have a brother that has taught golf for near 50 years now and during the past 6 years I have spent a lot of time with him on the golf course, practice range and putting greens. All the tips in the world on golfing means nothing if I don’t go out there and practice what I am taught. I just don’t take a tip and go do it. Normally the same applies to new hardware. If I am hitting my old ones relatively well, then I am probably going to hit the new ones well. New hardware is not going to automatically make my game better. If I want to get better with either, I NEED TO PRACTICE.
Practice is not going to the driving range and hitting a couple of buckets of balls, or loosening up before play. Practice means going to the course or practice facility and practicing one shot until you master the art of that shot. Many people try to practice the complete game in one practice round. NO CAN DO! Find out the correct way to hit the shot, practice it and you will be a better golfer.
The game consists of many elements, driving, long irons, fairway woods, short irons, chipping, pitching, draws, fades, chipping down hill, up hill, around the hill, putting, factors on the greens. Golfing is a complicated game but it CAN BE FUN. Even in the learning stages of the game.
I am 70 years young and carry a 7 handicap down to a 5.
There is a transition from the top 3/4 swing. It is a little hip movement forward. No more than an inch or so. If you try it, you will notice that the club stays on plane, back to square in the mitt, up the tree, T finish.
I read the comments and seen the Bonus Videos about DJ’s takeaway. I too thought he cocked his wrists but now I do not. I see a slight counterclockwise turn as he moves his wrists to the right and up. A wrist cock is when the left wrist /thumb snaps up vertically but he does not do this, at least as I see it. Many years ago a prominent golfer told me about the slight counter clockwise turn and I try to do it. I think DJ obviously does it a lot better than I do.
Ken K
Don,
I also see a wrist cock at DJ’s initial move. I believe in the bonus DVD you are calling it a roll of the arms but in slow mo his hands are definitely moving without his shoulders or forearms. His wrist do not look cupped at the top of the swing so is he setting his wrist early as apposed to cocking them?
Is there a place on the site that you are answering the above questions that a member can view?
I am guessing that you do not get to everyone’s questions but I wanted to make sure there was not a part of the site I am missing.
Thanks,
Corey
Surge,
How does PPGS compair to the Moe Norman”s Natural Golf Swing? I had changed my swing to NG because of back problems and was suprised that I did not lose any distance.
Hi Mr. Don,
Do you have any section in spanish?, my english is really bad and is very difficult to me to understand your precious articles.
I am new to your method and anxious to see results for me. The question about who other than DJ uses your method: I think the best example is Robert Allenby: 3/4 swing, little if any wrist cock. flat wrist- and he just happens to be among best ball strikers on tour!
When I started thinking of skipping a stone is when I truly understood what the PPGS is. I have always had the problem of moving my upper body toward the target on the swing, which robs the power. The image of skipping a stone fixes that.
Surge,
I have the same question as several above. I have asked several times about obtaining the swing manual. Noone seems to want to respond to that question. I know the questions are getting through because one part of an email was answered but the manual was not. Please have some oned respond. thanks
Hi Don,
My question is do you initiate the movement of the takeaway with your left arm, ie catcher’s mitt up the tree or your right arm, as you say throwing a ball or skipping a rock.
Also I noted with interest on both yours and your son’s swing that you went way past vertical at the top of your swings, ie up the tree and gravity takes care of the rest.
For you guys that cannot find the “Foundations Manual” Do this: Login to the site, place your mouse on (do not click) and hold it there. “MY PRODUCTS” is at top of the screen, two choices will then appear the topmost contains the DVDs, the bottom choice is the “Foundations Manual” Drag your mouse to darken “Foundations Manual” and release your mouse. You will then have access to Don’s manual. You can then view it on your PC or Mac or you can download it to your PC or Mac.
Surge,
Your video of you and DJ swinging the club is very helpful. My question is this: Is there a limit on how fast I should try to swing my arms in the down swing, and should I be concerned about where my hands are in relation to my body? Sorry that is two questions in one.
Respectfully,
Joe
For the last 30 plus years many famous ballet dancers use the Feldenkrais movement techniques to keep themselves dancing in peak form. So when Don speaks about body movements etc I compare them to Feldenkrais… and the one piece takaway aint it. The way the skeleton makes its best and most productive movement regards golf is for the arms to go away as far as possible, which automatically leads to the right knee folding, then the body turns automatically.
Whilst I cant boast being a pro, or training pro’s, I have been successful in big time coaching in rugby union and AFL Australian football…. I am quite obsessed with golf… I currently have a pretty low handicap, and can enjoy the golf game most of the time…no matter what happens…But I suggest that if you are struggling, you try the arms away as far as you can first, then let the rest take care of itself, as the skeleton naturally folds perfectly… It seems there a close to a thousand ways to swing a club, and like religion, many ways home to the hole… Another idea worth experiment is to at set up lock your left hip in behind the ball, and basically go from there. It leads to hitting draw balls and straight balls, with the arms away first take away… It definately works, and when you get the confidence to hit out on the ball slightly, the ball flight you get is pretty to watch…So you get the feeling that you are hitting out and around your left leg…which stays strong… Consistency is very possible using this technique,,, and consistency in golf is a wonderful thing.
Surge:
Please correct me if I’m wrong! The right arm (right handed players) stays in place until the club reaches the toe line and then moves away from the side as you complete the backswing up the tree.
You rotate the club toe up without letting the right elbow move away from the address position.
I believe this would give those trying for a smooth takeaway another feeling for “lifting the club into the cathers mit”.
Can one of you who are experience in the takeback clear this up for me? It is about Don’s statement about maintaining the wrist angle set at address, where he writes on this blog, ,
“This is how we lift with no wrist cocking and thus maintain the wrist angle set at address.”
When I watched the excellent videos, the one of Don show that when his hands are at his right leg, the club shaft is already horizontal. So, using this as a reference point, I returned the club back to the address position, and either I had to bend way over to get the club head back to the ground, or the shaft pointed way below my belt line. The only way I could get back to the normal address position was to increase the angle between my forearms and the club shaft.
Please help. Is there something I’m missing?
Don,
Just a quick question. Why do you spend so much time answering questions for the general public when you have so many unanswered questions in the Inner Circle Forum?
I don’t mean to sound bitter, we just miss you on the inside.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
FOR JOEL WHO “IS LOSING EVERTHING RIGHT OF THE TARGET”
The other day a golfer who I had never played with was going to fill in as a part of our usual foursome. We were going to the range to warm up. He told me he had heard that I was a good golfer and that perhaps I could help him with a problem he was having and I said I would if I could. He said that his problem was always hitting the ball a little left of his target.
On the practice tee I asked him to hit some 8 irons using the 150 yard flag as his target. He had a very nice swing with good tempo. His feet, hips and shoulders were all square to the target but he , indeed, was hitting a little left of target.
So I stood facing him and watched him hit and saw the problem immediately. He was turning the toe of his club a little in when setting up and sure enough hit the ball where the club was aiming; namely, left. I told him this and to look down at the grooves to make certain that he was, in fact, aiming the club face to his intended target. So, he squared the clubface and thereafter hit the ball perfectly straight. We then played 18 holes and he did not hit one shot left.
As Don as said repeatedly: “Alignment, Alignment, Allgnment!!!”
Good golfing!
I would like to say God bless our veterans (and those on the battleline today) on this infamous
day of 7 December.
To John Bosco:
You initiate the backswing with the entire triangle consisting of the shoulders, left and right arm together.
Neither Don nor D.J. goes “way past vertical” when looking at their swings from the down-the-line view. Vertical means the 12:00 o’clock position, which both of them achieve. You must be thinking of it when looking at the face-on view where you are indeed correct that they go beyond vertical. It is the down-the-line version of vertical, i.e. the 12:00 o’clock position, that the PPGS advocates.
I have a problem of over swinging on the back swing. I start of nicely but by the 3rd hole I am back to where I was with my previous swing. apparently where I think I am swinging to bears no relation to where I actually do. So Push, Pulls but mainly Slices are back on the agenda. Is there any training drills or techniques I can use to fix my on course woes.
Cheers Peter
May I suggest trying to stand without a turn at all. Swing the club in a circle in front of you and see the speed you can generate. Try generating that speed swinging the club behind you. Not the same. I think this is what Surge is trying to say, with a 70 degree turn added. It is one move in a circle.
Your refence to the catcher’s mitt is no use to us here in the UK where baseball is practically unknown! Any chance of a diagram to show us what you mean? Where does the mitt start?? And where is the ball coming from? I presume it’s not a high ball, as it must begin from a hanging position like the hands on the gold club?? Sorry about all the questions!
It sounds so good, I’d hate to miss this tip just because of my lack of understanding baseball.
Cyrus
That was the most difficult ‘visual’ key to fix in ones mind. After using Ledbetter’s swing thoughts for years it was hard not to ’set’ the wrists early and trun away from the ball.
Then, while reading today’s journal it dawned on me to thing about swinging the club away from the ball, not ‘turning’. Sometimes just one word can make a big difference.
Chuck
Don & DJ : do they cock their wrists?
Look at the videos. Are you going to believe Don, or your lying eyes? LOL!
The wrists do not cock. If you will look at DJ’s video since it’s in slow motion and stop it at the top of his back swing you’ll see that his left wrist is in the same position as at address. What DJ does do is rotate the left forearm quickly as he is beginning the turn and lift. This is not cocking the wrist. Watch the video and look at his left forearm as he starts the back swing. To see what wrist cock is hold your arms out in front of you and put your hands together as if holding a golf club and move your hands in a manner that you are pointing the thumbs straight up. That creates an almost 90* angle and neither DJ or Don have that. The left forearm rotates as the shoulders start the turn and then lift. DJ rotates faster than Don and I would expect that as he his younger and quicker to begin with. Both maintain the one piece take away, keeping the triangle formed by chest and arms constant, as opposed to many higher handicap players that take the club back to the inside and then come over the top. For those who would like to feel the take away without wrist cock as you are probably used to in rotational swings, take your address and as you begin to turn the shoulders simply rotate the left forearm clockwise to the point that the face of the club is in the same line as your arms, i.e. the toe is pointing up. Look at your wrists. The angle should be the same To check this, simply rotate the left forearm counter clockwise as you return the shoulders to the original address position. You should be just like you were before and you didn’t have to do a thing with your wrists. So, you can choose to believe the Master PGA Teaching Professional or someone that has a history of going from article to article on this site and trying to incite confrontation. THE WRISTS DON’T COCK!
For you guys that cannot find the “Foundations Manual” Do this: Login to the site, place your mouse on (do not click) and hold it there. “MY PRODUCTS” is at top of the screen, two choices will then appear the topmost contains the DVDs, the bottom choice is the “Foundations Manual” Drag your mouse to darken “Foundations Manual” and release your mouse. You will then have access to Don’s manual. You can then view it on your PC or Mac or you can download it to your PC or Mac.
No I CANNOT, I’ve tried this route several times now but all that’s appearing under the “my products” tab is “DVDs” no ‘foundations manual’ to be seen nor anywhere else.
I would really like to get some things clarified through the manual, so where is it……
Eric
Eric,
Not sure but I think you have to be a member of the Inner Cirlce for that to show up under my products. If you are a member then I’d contact them at 800-603-2706 (8:00AM to 6:00PM MST, Monday Through Friday)
Nice comment J. Griffin! You definitely know what your talking about and have a good grip,so to speak, on the PPGS!
I’d like to mention too that it’s nice that most everyone stayed on subject on this blog.
That makes for a much more enjoyable and constructive discussion!
Could you send me the videos of you and DJ’s swings. I would appreciate it.
Thanks!
Surge is there a PPGS teaching pro in the San Franciso please let me know.
Thank You Ralph Smith
Hi Guys: I notice you make reference to the lifting of the right arm( Right handed) as though you are going to pitch a ball- the arm rises to the level of the shoulder- however I would imagine you would never want the feeling of throwing the ball from this position as this would be the equivalent of a ‘fly cast’ would it not? From this position you want to drop the club into the slot, hands close to the right thigh, then pull the hands (stll ahead of the club head at this point) through the ball ( where the club head catchtr5l;es up) and up to the “T” position at the finish?
Frank
To J Griffin,
No, no, and no!
That was way too much detail that by definition will absolutely confuse and perplex the masses all day every day, as evidenced by the historical replies to this question! And I thought that was a rather hostile denouement of Warren’s perfectly honest and proper reaction that again is a reaction that has been made by literally hundreds on this forum. Warren’s only failure here is that instead of edifying, he tries to do a “gotcha!” But Griffin, he will learn along with yourself when you both inculcate the following.
Fortunately, I’m available to clarify, simplify, and rectify all the confusion in the PPGS regarding “wrist cock,” a wrist cock that occurs in all swings including the PPGS.
In the PPGS, all that needs to be said, all that has to be explained, is the agreement that the left wrist must be flat at the top with no caving in nor bowing out of that same wrist. It’s the caving in or bowing out of the left wrist that Don labels as “wrist cocking.” So he’s correct when, by his own definition, a flat left wrist at the top “represents” no wrist cocking. And a swing motion of the clubhead by the hands will automatically facilitate that condition. That’s it! Period!
Oh, oh, here it comes! But we all need to finally agree on the next point — an agreement that removes confusion and hopefully prevents errors in swing analysis that Griffin and others all to often facilitate.
All you all, read carefully! We must agree on this basic point for the purpose of retaining the collective sanity of Warren and all of the rest of the PPGSers! Yes, the wrists very definitely hinge at the base of the thumbs as so determined by centrifugal force on the clubhead. Yes, yes, and yes! And this “flexion” is fundamental to the action placed on the clubshaft and clubhead. And yes, the Surge grudgingly accepts this fact on Page 82 of his PPGS Manual“…a little flexing is okay but no breaking or cocking in the swing;“ Page 83 “…wrist may flex a little;” and Page 84 “…move your wrist up and down. It moves…range is limited.”
From the beginning of time (roughly the 1600 hundreds in Scotland) knowledgeable observers of the golf swing have called this flexion a “cocking action.” And yes Mr.Griffin, this “hinging” is clearly evident in Don’s and DJ’s swings. Now I personally don’t care what anyone calls it as long as this angle at the bottom of both thumbs created by centrifugal force is recognized as a vital contributor to the overall pure swing action.
Finally, Amen!
To Ralph Smith
If a PPGS teacing pro is not avaiable in the Bay Area, I would be happy to take a look at your swing and hopefully offer some constructive ideas (free of charge, of course). Perhaps we could meet at the Mission Bay facility.
I love the PPGS and Don’s system has me playing better than ever! Leave a cell number or email address if interested.
Namaste!
So far so good, I’m just about ready to order my first golf video’s but I do need to understand the flat, firm, whatever wrist thing, Your video’s of your and DJ swing clearly show a wrist cock at the top of the 3/4 quarter swing. I’m missing some thing? What?
I’m sorry NINERMIKE, I make a living at this and you can argue symantics all you want. A flex of the wrist is not a cock of the wrist. If your wrists were fully cocked in your back swing by the time your hands got to waist high the club would be pointing straight up in the air. The flexing in or bowing of the wrist as you call it has nothing to do with cocking. That movement is called “cupping” and is not all what is meant by cocking the wrist. The slight flexation as you call it is caused by the weight of club head and movement but again is certainly not a cocking action. A “cocked” wrist is one where the thumb, if held up, would be at 90* to the forearm. I don’t mind being corrected when I’m wrong but in this instance, I’m not.
You also took out of context what Don says in the manual and one statement sums it up quite well and I quote (from bottom of page 83), “It is because if a golfer over bends, breaks, hinges, or especially cocks his wrists anywhere in the backswing, keeping the wrist flat at the top is “ANATOMICALLY IMPOSSIBLE”.
From this one statement we can certainly see that to Don cocking and keeping the wrist flat are two different entities and do not have the same definition. I really can’t add anything else to it.
And do you really think the following was an honest and proper reaction to anything?
“Don & DJ : do they cock their wrists?
Look at the videos. Are you going to believe Don, or your lying eyes? LOL!’
Unless my reading comprehension has decreased considerablly, I’d say it’s sarcastic and a subtle way of questioning Don’t veracity and an attempt to discredit him as happens to be the case with just about every post that said individual puts up.
AMEN AND AMEN!
Hello I purchased your system and have no received anything yet. Don’t i get the whole system on cds? Let me know whats the hold up, John
Surge- They used too teach your swing at eagles point in south carolina and I talked to one of the instructors about the swing and he convinced me too purchase your dvd’s and if I had any trouble he would be here for lessons, so now I am trying to find him and eagles point just told me that your swing isn’t taught there anymore and don’t know nothing or where it is being taught. Could you please give some names of instructorsn in the savannah ga area please. tks Dennis
Dennis,
You want to talk with Greg McDonald and I’m pretty sure he’s teaching out of Olde South just off Hilton Head Island. In any case, here’s his number.
843-683-5988
Don’t know what you guys are getting all worked up about. I believe that Don has found the answer to every golfers problem. KEEP IT SIMPLE !!!!
I don’t have Don’s videos, don’t need them. Just reading what he says has helped me considerably. With the 3/4 swing my swing thought is “Up & Down” just that, short and simple.
Have been using the PPGS (or my interpretation of it) for about six months now. My game has improved beyond recognition, handicap reduced to 10. I’m hoping that the improvement continues and that for the first time in my life (I’m 69yrs old) I can get down to single figures early next year.
Keep up the good work Don.
Cheers.
This does not seem very simple at all, seems like you would just use your arms and take the big muscles out of the swing, very confusing and not simple to do for me.
Wristcock: I am quoting from Harvey Penick—-”one way to mess students up is to tell
them to cock their wrists. When you swingback to waist high- shaft parallel to the ground and
the toe pointed straight up your wrists will be cocked. Tof get a clear picture in mind of how the
wrists cock,double your left hand into a fist. This is an automatic wrist cock.” Another wise
pro said to make a fist and hold on as tight as you can with your fingers. Now move the hand
up and down. You can’t keep from cocking your wrists because it is a hinge. Hands up and
down-OK. Hands moving left and right is a big NO NO!! Any sideways movement is SOLELY
a result of centrifugal force. Hope this helps eliminate this confusion.
Parchaser
Hello Surge,
What about into the catchers mitt and throw the catchers mitt up the tree with the head of the club all in one continuous motion? Seriously though, when I first tried the swing I had a slight hesitation when reaching the catchers mitt. This kills the swing. It has to be one continuous motion.
DON,THANKS FOR YOUR SHOW I LOVED IT. DO THINK WE OR YOU COULD COME UP W/ A PARCTICE TOOL FOR 30 DEGREE FEET(WIDE KNEES) THAT WOULD FIT IN INSIDE OF THE FEET AND ADJUSTABLE WIDTH FOR DIFFERENT SIZED GOLFERS AND PUT AND ARROW OR PROJECTION THAT WAS TOWARDS THE BALL AND MOVEABLE FOR DIFFERENT CLUBS,WEDGE TO 5 IRON OR SO. WOULD THIS WORK ON THE RANGE W/ A SUPPORT VIDEO. THANKS MARK
To J Griffin,
You know Griffin, you come across like an old curmudgeon incapable of admitting that you may be incorrect even when the facts clearly expose your lack of insight or knowledge. Read and reread Pardchaser’s very clear and very correct definition of wrist cock. He, Harvey Penick, and I understand the role of wrist cock in the swing because, contrary to your position, there is very definitely a wrist cock that exists!
I’ve come to the conclusion that you have totally misinterpreted Don and the PPGS. It was you who several months ago claimed the pictures of Don’s swing convinced you that his shoulders were at 90 degrees. It was I who pointed out to you that the pictures were grainy and his black shirt and pants made it difficult to perceive his shoulder turn — but indeed there was enough contrast to note the turn was in fact in the 70-75 degree range. You failed to acknowledge my correction.
It was I who pointed out you you your incorrect assertion that te PPGS was a mechanical rotary large muscle type of action. I replied that Don’s system was truly a small muscle hand and arm event and Don acknowledge this fact through his endorsement of Ernest Jones. Again, no acknowledgement from your corner.
Griffin, read this carefully for you once again misinterpret! Again and again, contrary to your statement, Don’s definition of a wrist cock has always been the appearance of the left wrist either bowing out or cupping in. Again, this is Don’s definition not mine. Please acknowledge this fact one time.
You continue to confuse everyone when you wrote “…A “cocked” wrist is one where the thumb, if held up, would be at 90* to the forearm. I don’t mind being corrected when I’m wrong but in this instance, I’m not.” Guess what oh confusing one? You are correct, you are not wrong. But you are confusing and contradicting because this is exactly how Parchaser and I define wrist cock and yet you find a way to disagree with our position. You even said “THE WRISTS DON’T COCK!” My, oh my, oh my!
And finally Griffin, your most confusing and contradictory quote and conclusion: “ ‘It is because if a golfer over bends, breaks, hinges, or especially cocks his wrists anywhere in the backswing, keeping the wrist flat at the top is “ANATOMICALLY IMPOSSIBLE.” ’ From this one statement we can certainly see that to Don cocking and keeping the wrist flat are two different entities and do not have the same definition. I really can’t add anything else to it.”
Well I can add “anything else.” By your own correct definition of what comprises a wrist cock, it IS anatomically possible to establish a flat left wrist. And please admit and agree that I correctly defined Don’s definition of wrist cock. And it is by Don’s definition of wrist cock that he correctly claims it is anatomically impossible to construct a flat left wrist.
In conclusion to this whole issue Griffin, and contrary to your original post, the wrist cock does exist in the golf swing. Wait! I just got confused again. Your next post to me seems to confirm a wrist cock does exist! My, oh my, oh my!
Lastly, while I’m on the subject of your inability or stubborn refusal to acknowledge some perceived misperceptions, it was I who immediately pointed out to you that you had no insight nor understanding of the Jones’ “knife and handkerchief” exercise. It took me three posts before you seemed to finally realize your lack of knowing but again, there was no acknowledgement on your part. An aside: You never acknowledged nor gave me feedback on the Jones’ exercise I helped you to re-understand and to apply its wisdom.
I also pointed out to you your outdated methods of teaching the swing contribute to the fact that the collective handicap of the golfing public has not improved over the last thirty years. Again, no acknowledgement of this fact on your part.
I dinally cited for you a dozen examples that in any athletic endeavor that sees the hands holding an implement or throwing an object, it is those same hands that the competent athlete relies upon when initiating and translating to the rest of the body its role in an athletic move. Your reply was not an acknowledgement but a feeble juvenile reply in the form of besmirching my post by asking how a skier can ski just using his hands. How disengenuous of you!
Griffin, just like an old curmudgeon, you refuse to grow and to learn. This is what is holding you back as a competent teacher. I can say this because teaching is my profession and teaching teachers how to teach is my forever skill. Please take advantage of my continued quest to help you understand teaching methodology. It is my forever Christmas gift to you and yours.
Hey, Merry Christmas!
Ninermike:
You are of course entitled to your opinion. But, I rather see you as one who is more of the crusty codger that is unwilling to change. I left out old in respect of the fact that you are indeed of retirement age. However, you are not the only one with a teaching degree and that was my field also. A preparation of sorts for present day activities. You also can’t blame the collective lack of improvement in golfer’s handicaps on all teachers. In truth, of the golfing population, the vast majority never take a lesson or go from one instructor to another.
As for the Jones comments, I’m not even going there again and will not waste anymore of these fine people’s time reading a verbal jousting match. Surfice it to say, I totally disagree with your interpretation and as for the drill, I was able to do it long before any conversation with you.
As for the wrist cocking, Don’s definition, etc., I stand by what I’ve said and that’s enough. There is a big difference in a slight flex of the hand and a deliberate cocking of the wrist. So, have a great Christmas but I will not engage in another verbal battle with you.
Niner Mike for trying to clear things up you sure rambled out a long-winded post that is completely confusing! I remember reading your stuff from awhile ago and it seemed to be concise & insightful. But, now, after reading your posts today I need to go back and watch all Don’s videos again just to find clarity and the simplicity of his philosophy. What happened? You obviously have an axe to grind with another blogger. I won’t name names, but, I think the initials are JG.
Don if your out there,,,can you help!
To J Griffin,
And there you have it. The man has decided to treat me like a holier than thou tomato sauce rejecting an elegant and worthy pasta! And thanks for all of the non acknowledgements.
Mr. Stubborn considers learning as something for others to do, but for right now, he knows it all — too insecure to bring wisdom into his existence.
Well Griff, if you are willing to compromise learning for stubbornness, then so be it. I have now declared this post, by proclamation, to be for others edification and for the removal of the mass confusion you are not willing to address.
You: “…I’m not even going there again and will not waste anymore of these fine people’s time reading a verbal jousting match.”
And exactly what would you call that insane and inane diatribe rant with Sir Hamilton. Talk about a pseudo intellectual waste of PPGS forum space!
You also wrote “…I stand by what I’ve said and that’s enough. There is a big difference in a slight flex of the hand and a deliberate cocking of the wrist.”
You stand by what you said and no, that’s not enough! I won’t let you off the proverbial hook with another of your furtive quick shots designed not to educate but to fend off other’s opinions that might be in disagreement with your own. This running off of yours, cultivated by years of reacting not listening, has brought you into that divine state of stubbornness that I now often refer in your unholy presence. Again and again, that slight ”vertical” flex of the wrist just happens to be a universal imperative! Yeah, really! And it is by definition, not a deliberate wrist cock, but a very natural, instinctive event! An instinctive event that causes a ………………..“wrist cock” in the swing!
Listen Griff, if you have any compassion for your young beginner students, you will continue the dialog and learn. If you don’t care about these impressionables, then let ignorance continue to enslave and self doubt continue to rule.
How sad if I’m right about your character. How glorious if I’m wrong!
This is about reality not interpretation! Her is reality as Don wrote it. This is a copy & paste from Don’s free lesson #2 “The Myth of Wrist Cock”:
The point I want make here is this:
If you cock, break or set your wrists at any point during your back-swing, you are changing what I call “The #1 Domino.” Do you know what happens when the first domino falls?
They all fall!
When you cock or set your wrists, you change the angle of your left forearm to the shaft… as well as change all the muscle lengths and tone of your arms and hands.
So I believe, and teach, “Good wrist action is no wrist action.”
In the backswing, you want to do everything mentally and physically possible to ensure you never let your left wrist angle change in the backswing. Lifting the club properly, from the takeaway to the top of the backswing, gets the club above the hands at the top without any change in muscle length or tone, and is the key ingredient to having a 3/4 length and vertical backswing.
There you go.
I hope you’ve enjoyed this short lesson today.
Tomorrow we’re going to demolish another dangerous myth — about posture.
So watch your inbox tomorrow.
To Jim
How perceptive an image you present. I’m impressed! You are right on as far as my displeasure with a certain JG. I feel he has been intellectually dishonest. Dishonest by the way he takes things completely out of context to support ideas not true and condemn the honestly conveyed opinions I present.
But hey, you sound alive and impressionable and empathetic and my kind of golfing enthusiast. And thanks for the acknowledgement of some of my past posts in other discussions. I applaud your egalitarianism as well as the self secure attitude you give off.
I think you will agree that I correctly defined Don’s definition of what makes up a wrist cocking action. And you are quite accurate in your citation of Don’s notions on angles. But I have to respectively disagree that a cocking action in the PPGS methodology does not exist.
It you read Parchaser’s post, Griffin’s post, Don’s words about the “hinge” at the base of the thumbs, there is by universal agreement that an angle is formed, does take place, in all swings at the base of the thumbs. It must take place because by law, centrifugal force demands this!
Now despite forearm action, wrists that are set at address, wrists that maintain the club head square to the plane or arch of the swing, it’s that hinge at the base of the thumbs that creates the 120, to 90, to sometimes a 70 degree angle of the club to the left arm at the top of the back swing.
Jim, what I say here does not compromise, contradict, denounce the PPGS. What I say here validates and endorses it’s wonderful application.
Your thoughts of my thoughts….
NinerMike, I love respectful banter. But, ,I have to say, that that last post I made was a direct cut and paste quote from The D man himself. Myth #2. Maybe this is about tomato / tomahto, etc.
You use the words “wrist cock” Don says NO wrist cock. In fact he’s adamant about it. Maybe your idea of wrist cock is a visual perception or a personal interpretation you have. I don’t know! Like you said I (and a lot of others) can be impressionable. Since this is Don’s thing, I don’t feel we should try to re-word, add to or take away from, his explanations. Like he says kiss.
Sir, I am69 years old and have a 15-16 handicap. I believe i could drop this by 5-10 strokes if i could just hit my second shots. Also i have lost about 20-30 yards from my driver,and also from my irons. Wrist cock all of a sudden is driving me crazy.PLEASE CAN U HELP?
A smooth one piece takeaway is very important as it sets the tone for a successful execution of the entire golf swing. For me the club head is swung back into the catcher’s mitt (or wicket keeper’s gloves) toe up and then up the tree in one smooth easy action. The club head is swung with a centrifugal action, to promote a pure swinging motion, with a sense of feeling of control of the clubhead in the hands and the power of centrifugal exertion coming from the centre of the swing (namely the centre of the shoulders).
It is also important to swing the club with the muscles of the body, particularly arms and hands, in dynamic balance and to not consciously introduce any efforts other than those coming from the centre of the swing that promote the pure, centrifugal swinging motion of the clubhead with a sense of feeling and control in the hands.
The wrists remain flat, i.e. the surface of the back of the hand does not change angle with the surface of the top of the forearm, and to consciously break the wrists introduces an external effort, or “leverage”,, that interferes with the pure swinging motion. This is a fundamental element to secret #2, palms perpendicular. I like the swings of Retief Goosen, Ernie Els and Steve Stricker as I think they embody the principle of secret #2 and Camillo Villegas states that he focuses on returning his left wrist back to a flat position at impact pointing at the target.
There is some movement of the wrists in the parallel plane to the flat wrist, or palms perpendicular, during the swing because of different loading conditions at different points in the swing. This is a perfectly normal unconscious action because the wrists are flexible and to make a conscious effort to fight this movement will again interfere with the pure swinging motion.
I swing in the PPGS style which has been a tremendous boost to my physical well being, it helps me manage my dodgy lower back, as well as my ball striking. I also swing with the Ernest Jones methodolgy of the pure, centrifugal swinging motion with a sense of feeling and control of the club head with the hands. This has allowed me to develop “form” with the PPGS and to continuously improve.
I must say a thank you to NinerMike, and other like minded bloggers, who intoduced me to the Ernest Jones philosophy. If you were teaching in the Sydney, Australia, area then I would definitely go see you as I would be confident in receiving positive and helpful feedback of my golf swing.
Regards, Craig S
NinerMike Said….
To Jim
How perceptive an image you present. I’m impressed! You are right on as far as my displeasure with a certain JG. I feel he has been intellectually dishonest. Dishonest by the way he takes things completely out of context to support ideas not true and condemn the honestly conveyed opinions I present.
Mike,
Didn’t realize it had become so personal with you. First and foremost as a Christian I would not be dishonest and misrepresent any issue. Second, I have never condemned any opinion of yours. I don’t agree with some of them but I’d never condemn an opinion or a man for having one. Since this has gone from the intellectual to the emotional, I offer my apologies for any and all offenses.
I said this before and it bears saying again. Like Jim said, it seems to be the tomato or tomahto thing where the same thing is basically being said but in a different manner in different words.
However, I have offered my sincere apology and hopefully it is acceptable. Merry Christmas!
To Craig63
Bravo!
Yours was as clear and as concise a description of the PPGS as has ever been conveyed on these forum pages. I enjoyed the imagery, an imagery that provided for me an excellent visualization as well as an excellent feel for the fabulous swing system the Surge has provided the golfing kingdom.
Thank you for this wonderful lesson.
Namaste and Merry Christmas,
Michael
Here is my point and I hopefully can get it across clearly. My dad told me years ago that the burden of communication lies with the communicator. So, I have grown up making a conscious effort to choose my words carefully and concisely. So, the problem that I have had, especially being that I have a degree in education and that I am currently involved in teaching the golf swing among other things golf related, is that teachers and untrained individuals have a tendency to spout what they have heard or interpreted. My whole beef with the Jones discussion was simply the wording and not the underlying principal involved. Here is the point and I have copied the following from Crais S post above.
‘It is also important to swing the club with the muscles of the body, particularly arms and hands, in dynamic balance and to not consciously introduce any efforts other than those coming from the centre of the swing that promote the pure, centrifugal swinging motion of the clubhead with a sense of feeling and control in the hands.
I agree wholeheartedly with all but one part and it is a small but key part. There are two types of muscles in the hand, flexors and extendors and just about all of them have their root in the forearm.
HERE IT IS, MY POINT OF CONTENTION: YOU SWING THE CLUB WITH YOUR ARMS, YOU HOLD THE CLUB WITH YOUR HANDS. THE HANDS FEEL, THEY COMMUNICATE, THEY DIRECT, BUT THEY ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE MOVEMENT OF THE CLUB ALONG THE SWING PATH.
Sorry, but this point is really not argueable. If you introduce movement, conscious, movement of the hands in the swing you are creating angles and this is diametrically opposed to the PPGS system. Oh, there is one other thing I take small issue with from Craig’s post and that has to do with the conscious effort to fight movement of the hands in the swing. In the Foundations manual, Don point blank says to make every effort to not move the hands so I see a conflict in the two statements. I think it has to come down to what works for the individual. If the student is an Leadbetter student or follower, they have a very early wrist set and would have to make a concerted effort to fight it.
I go back to my example that I used early on in another post to try to make my point even more clear. If I tell a student to swing the club by moving his hands then it would be ok if he took the club at address and moved the hands and started the club in some direction before even moving the arms or shoulder. Such is the case in golfers who have a very distinct inside “flip” with their hands and the first move then start turning the shoulders. This are the ones that come way over the top. However, if I take the same student and tell him to move the club by just starting the rotation of the shoulders and to keep a straight line from the shoulder to the club head the hands maintain their position. The point being to communicate the movement that you want.
I have never stated that the hands are not part of the swing, but they aren’t part of the movement of the swing. The one piece take away dictates this.
……So ant inside golf tips for a fellow golfer NinerMike?
Woody,
First, check ball position. When you are at address, have your left foot perfectly straight. Have the ball located in line with the big toe of the left foot. Then, go ahead and turn your left foot to at least 30* angle. This is to make sure that the ball is up far enough in your stance to give the club head time to square. Next, try choking down on the drive to about a total length of 44″. And finally, turn the ball on the tee where the logo is in the lower right hand quandrant of the ball as you are standing above it and looking down at it. As you are swinging, this becomes your visual focal point and nothing but this. You want this to be the spot where the club head is coming in to the ball. This will help to eliminate coming over the top. Also, make sure that you are only taking the club to the point that the shaft is over the toe line then up. Also, it’s imperative that the downswing is initiated by the “bump” of the left hip towards the target, not the arms moving first. If they move first it will put you out of position. Also, if your “bump” is a sway, this will have adverse results also. All that being said, it’s difficult to offer the best assistance without actually seeing your swing. If you can have someone to video it on a phone or whatever and could send it to me I could help you better. If this is of interest, I’ll let you know how to contact me personally. Hope this helps!
to J. Griffin:
I live out the country and across a county road from a hay field. I going to try your advice tomorrow and let you know how it goes. If you will, send me an email to woodygrace59@yahoo.com w/some kind of contact info and I’ll see if I can send you some kind of video of my swing. Thanks and God Bless, Woody
this is turned into a pissing match and has taken all the fun out of reading any of it. I am here to learn and all I am learning is two people going after each other. If you are here only to discredit some one go away. and stop wasting my time
Don, I am hitting all my irons up to 5 amazing! I have great distance, just as with my old swing, yet more accuracy, which I of course love.
My 5, 4 and 5wood, rescue/hybrid, driver are suffering.
I’m not sure if I am swinging too hard on these or what is going on. I understand about the longer shaft, it was not a problem as much as now.
I don’t know of any PPGS system teachers in this area of Southern Calif.
I have viewed the new swing videos of you and D.J. and they have helped significantly!
Thanks,
Wes
Re: no cocking of the wrists and centrifugal force
Thanks for several of you posters, I know feel like I understand the nuances in the behavior of the wrists in the cocking/no cocking debate and what people really mean by “centrifugal force” as related to the swing, two items that have been confusing me for several months.
I now understand the subtle difference between consciously cocking the wrists and unconsciously allowing them to flex in reaction to the movement of the arms in the swing, making it look like the wrists are being cocked. Such a subtle difference. It is like the person who was said to jump to conclusions, but he says instead that conclusions jump at him.
To inexperienced golfers who have little idea of how the various muscles feel during different parts of the swing, we cannot know the difference between conscious cocking and unconscious flexing. All we can see is that the angle form by the forearms and the club shaft changes somewhere along the to the top.
Now to figure out what actually happens to the wrists in the downswing. Obviously, you don’t uncock them since they aren’t cocked. I’m guessing that they just unflex in reaction to the downward swing, just as they flex in the takeback.
I now realize that by “centrifugal force,” writers are referring to the angular velocity (rotational velocity) that is generated by the body and arms in the way similar to the internal parts of a centrifuge that separates blood products, a spin clothes dryer, and a hammer thrower. Now I see that this abbreviation to “centrifugal force” is not the same as the centrifugal force that would hurl a ball into space if it were being spun in an orbit at the end of the string, and the string breaks.
I am grateful for the extensive postings on the subject of the wrists because it took the many ways that several of you wrote about this action to clarify it for me, starting with NinerMike and J. Griffin, and finally brought to closure for me by Craig63.
It also emphasizes that pictures are not sufficient, videos are not sufficient, and words are not sufficient. People like me need all of them to make sense of the golf swing.
Thank you, posters, for helping me understand Don’s swing.
Charlie
I am looking to buy a set of fitted clubs. I came across the 1 Iron Golf Club set. The rational seems to make sense, all clubs are the same length! Have any of you golfers used these clubs? If so, what are your thoughts.
Michael,
I don’t want to get into the problems with the I IRON set but this is nothing new as Tommy Armour did this years ago back in the 80’s and it didn’t work then. Your quest for fitting clubs is admirable but getting those would not be getting fitted clubs. Look at the link below and use this as a bench mark for what a fitting truly is.
http://tmgolf.sports.officelive.com/fitting.aspx