Friday, July 30, 2010

Noodley Arms and Getting That Feeling Back

- Audio version at the end of this post –

I’m here at the Peak Performance Golf School in Port St. Lucie, Florida. This morning, before we started the school, one of our students from a previous school, who lives in South Florida, arranged to have a two hour lesson with me.

Larry showed up and what I saw was a really good set up and a pretty good golf swing. He really did a pretty good job of maintaining and improving what we worked on at the golf school. He had the wide knees. He maintained them in the backswing and had a good take away, in the mitt and up the tree. As far as set up and backswing goes, he was pretty much spot on. But after that we ran into some problems.

He started by telling me he was having problem in terms of hitting a lot of chunks and then he hit some thins and then some blocks or pulls. But in between, he hit some pretty good golf shots. He was starting to hit some good ones but there were too many of these chunks and thins thrown in there. What we saw was a setup and top of backswing that was good, but from the forward upswing (FUS) to the finish he was having problems.

What was really happening was his arms were, what I like to call them, too noodley, too soft, just kind of collapsing on the way down. He had a tendency to just drop the club on the ground and then try to save it to have a good upswing to his finish. There was  no consistency. One time he might make a really good swing, keep good form and good muscle tone and swing right up to a good T-Finish and hit a pretty good shot. The next one, half way down, his arms could just get soft and get right to the ball or through the ball and didn’t have any really good acceleration up to the finish.

I determined it was because, basically, he wasn’t maintaining and setting a good muscle tone in his hands and up his forearms and maintaining it through the whole swing, from the takeaway right through to the finish. So we worked on squeezing up on his grip so he had an upward pressure squeeze in his grip and that he would firm up his forearms up to just below his elbows. The key was, from the takeaway all the way to the finish, he did not let that muscle tone change in his swing.

We started getting him to a really good t finish, square to his target and impact started getting really consistent, shallow, tear the grass out of the ground and good ball striking, good height, and actually got a bit of his draw back. He said that was one of the problems he was having, he lost his slight draw.

So it was just giving him a firmer grip and forearms and maintaining it and making sure that as he swung his forward upswing to approaching the ball and through,  and that he was firm and accelerating, not ever just going noodley or limp where things would fall out of position. So he started hitting some pretty good balls and getting his draw back.

At the golf school Larry attended, we suggested his clubs weren’t quite right and to go see a fitter. So he went to a club fitter and the gentleman built him three golf clubs with 3 different heads. He built him a perimeter weighted, investment cast club with a little bit of offset. He built him a modified, cavity backed forged head, sort of a blade looking club. Then he built him a pure blade.

So Larry was trying to figure out what he wanted to use. Now, as you all know, I’m big on blades. I would put a beginner in blades. I Think blades work better. You swing the shaft and the head rotates around the shaft. I think if you have a blade all the weight of the club is right behind where the impact is. It’s like hitting the ball with a fist, not with an open hand, like a perimeter weighted club, which is suppose to give you better balance and a wider sweet spot — which doesn’t happen.

Larry hit all three clubs. He hit the perimeter weighted cavity back, which is a harder metal. Then he hit the modified cavity back, a forged club, which is a softer metal, and pure forged, muscle backed blade, where all the thickness and weight is right behind impact — the sweet spot.

When we finally got done with that, I said OK, what did you feel with that last one, with the blade. At first he said it was great. I said, OK, can you give me another adjective. He came back and said, “Perfect.”I said that’s still better, but what did the swing feel like and, most importantly, what did the impact feel like, what feedback did that ball on the club give you. He said, “The ball melted on the face.” I said, “Wow, I mean what does that tell you?”

Larry said, “The first club was very hard and kind of like a sharp hit. It didn’t feel anywhere near that soft. The second one was OK. But nothing like this one. I could feel the ball right on the face.” I said, “Do you think that if you could feel more on the face that you are getting much more feedback from the golf club about how you hit that ball?” He said, “Absolutely.” So I said, “So what does that tell you?” It tells me I want forged blade. If I can feel what the ball’s doing, I definitely got the concept, mentally and physically, of how well I’m hitting the golf ball.”

I thought I’d just pass that on. He felt the ball “melt on the face.” Phenomenal expression.  And what have I written about? “Feel the swing, swing the feel.” Part of swinging the feel is feeling at impact: Knowing where you struck the ball on the face and how that impact affected your ball flight. The better you can see it, the better you feel it, the more senses you use, the more powerful the feedback, the quicker the learning experience because you know what’s going on.

So, I think that the concept here is what? Play softer blades and softer heads and feel it. Go find a softer golf ball so you can feel the contact better. You get better feedback from that, especially with your putter. Better feedback is going to turn you into a better player. You feel and you know what’s happening and you learn. And that’s how you play better golf.

The Surge! (in Port St. Lucie)

- Use these controls for the audio version of this post –

Get Flash to see this player.

Post to Twitter Tweet This Post

.

Please Leave Me Your Comments & Questions!

Tell me what you're thinking... and what part of the golf swing, or this great game... you'd like to know more about. If you want your pic to show with your comment, go get a gravatar!

IMPORTANT: the purpose of this comment section is to foster constructive conversation about improving our blog reader's golf game. This area is NOT designed to answer customer support questions. If you have questions about a purchase or gaining access to our private members area, please contact our customer support team at 800-603-2706 (8:00AM to 6:00PM MST, Monday Through Friday) or click here for email support. We have a new team handling support and they are very good! Please also read the FAQs below as your first course of action.

"The Surge"

Top "Frequently Asked Questions":

Question: I haven't received the product(s) I ordered.

Answer: If you ordered the PPGS Foundations Video Series, or any combination of lesson videos, it's important to understand that these are delivered in a "digital format" in our secure members only area, click here to login and access this valuble content immediately. If you have never logged in before, simply click on the "First Time User?" link at the bottom of the login page and follow the instructions.

The main advantages to this delivery method are; (a) you have access to the content immediately after ordering, (b) you have several different formats that you can view the videos in (including downloadable formats you can burn to DVD and/or put right on your iPhone, or other smart phone, to take them to the practice range and (c) you will get new versions of any products that we revise and/or improve for free without having to wait for updates to be delivered to you through the postal mail.

IMPORTANT: if you want actual hard copy DVDs sent to your home, you can call our customer support team at 800-603-2706 (8:00AM to 6:00PM MDT, Monday Through Friday) and they can get those shipped right out to you for the price of shipping and handling.


Question: I received 1 or more of the 10 free videos, but I'm missing 1 or more. How do I get the free videos that I'm missing?

Answer: You can simply follow this link, put in the email address that you originally signed up with... and you'll be able to view them immediately: http://members.peakperformancegolfswing.com/LostFreeVideos.aspx


Question: I emailed customer service and I never got a response back. How do I get support?

Answer: Unfortantely, email is not a perfect system. If our support team has received your email, they have responded to it... their reply just might not have made it all the way to your email "inbox". If you still need assistance on ANYTHING, please call our customer support team at 800-603-2706 (8:00AM to 6:00PM MDT, Monday Through Friday) and they will take care of you.


  • I think that to get the loans from banks you must present a firm reason. But, one time I have got a collateral loan, because I wanted to buy a building.
  • Ronnie McCurry
    Dan I sent pics of my dupuytrens to your email.
  • Ronnie McCurry
    Bob Cooper
    Saw your comment on Dupuytrens. I have it and would like to hear from you.
    e-mail is djp208@hotmail. com.

    Dan

    That may have been my post. I will email you some pics of my hands. Have you heard of needle surgery? That is what I am looking into. Look at this and you can see these simple oprations all over www.HandCenter.org Needle Aponeurotomy / Fasciotomy for Dupuytren ...
  • Amos Terrell
    to Bill McCabe:

    Personally I LOVE blades -- I play old Wilson "progressive" irons from about the mid 80's.
    Formerly my handicap was 8 or 9 -- currently, due to old age and disease resulting in weak legs and balance issues, my handicap is 24 (was 28 a year ago). But I still hit the irons well -- solid and straight, just much shorter now - takes a 5 iron to cover my former 7 iron distance, etc

    Also I used to LOVE the 1 thru 3 irons -- but I no longer carry them -- except on the practice tee. I still hit them straight, but only slightly longer than my 4 iron.


    to J Lynn Griffin:

    Expect Driver info in your e-mail "any day now" -- I have the info but need to edit the swing video --- it is too big for my email to accept!

    Keep hittiing them STRAIGHT and LONG

    Amos
  • Jerry
    You better start out with a lot of gold if you are looking at those Miuras.If you bought those you would be "buying a game"
  • Kelly
    Those Miura blades look beautiful! Man, I wish I could afford to play this game the way that it can be played :). I guess I'll just have to keep hitting my Snake Eyes 600c, but that's not a big hardship. While I'm sure that they don't come close in quality to the Miuras (and probably some of the other non-OEMs clubs), I really like the look and feel of them (and so do alot of other people based, on the reviews). Then again, all this talk about muscle back blades has me thinking about going to the 600bs. At the price point of the Snake Eyes, I might even be able to consider the switch.
  • D. Battles
    Is anyone else haveing trouble accessing Don's email for 3/12/10? Man, I really want to see what he has to say about the short game and feel, and I can't get to it. Frustrating.
  • dan pierce
    Bob Cooper
    Saw your comment on Dupuytrens. I have it and would like to hear from you.
    e-mail is djp208@hotmail. com.

    Dan
  • John S
    I see you say Cavity back do not give a 'greater' sweet spot, but are you saying cavity backs srent much good, I have a set of Calaway Cavity Backs and I love them, I borrowed my friends 'blades' and to be honest found them crap. Poor distance, loss of control, a strange feeling on impact, (it wasnt sweet either) losts of slices and or "doublecrosses', For me Cavity backs have done exactly as promised, given me a greater margin of error. I am 70 yo, 135lbs and drive better than 240 yds. handicap can vary between 15 and 25 depending on my day on the greens. John Handicap is actually 18
  • Ron Wags
    Iam going to order the Wilson CI7 irons it seems to have good feed back and the look and feel of a blade.
  • john walowac
    3/4 swing or 3/4 turn ppgs
  • ken
    what do you mean by squezing up on the club is it squezing more with left hand or right or something different because i have the same problems
  • Frank Sullivan
    Hi Surge
    Your comment to Larry has helped me as well I think what was happening was with me I was thinking more about skipping a rock and as a result I was getting the same noddely felling that you would get if you went out to skip a rock and just let yourself relax to much without felling any firmness in your swing I hope I am right in this statement If you could confirm this I would appreciate it Thanks Frank from Ontario.
  • Barry
    To "The Surge",
    Thank you for your little reminders. The other day at the driving range, I followed your suggestions of wide knees, nose on the ball, and proper ball position. Something unusual happened. My banana slice disappeared. Sure, I still hit clunkers, but more often than before, I was hitting far and straight with the occasional draw. There is hope! What has helped me the most is the imagery you use in your lessons. When ball striking is not going so well, I first check out as to what horse I'm riding.
  • Ronnie McCurry
    J, do you mean this Muira blade?

    http://www.miuragolf.com/shop_blade2007.asp
  • LEE
    Jack Nicklaus agrees with you Surge - - As written in his "GOLF MY WAY", he used a firming of the grip and forearms as his backswing trigger - - instead of motion like a forward press. Great minds and golfers !!
  • D. Battles:

    Surge's take away process is that the right side turns and pulls the club back
    I think more of my left shoulder pushing the club back

    Whatever it takes to get the club started back is one thing but the hips do not turn the club back. In the PPGS you have restricted lower body rotation. As you turn the shoulders 3/4 limited back swing the forearms rotate and this moves the club head into the mit. At waist high, the club should be in line with the toe line and the club head angle mirroring your spine angle. From here, you lift the club up the tree. As you near completion of the back swing the left hip makes about a 1" lateral move towards target and this begins the transition of letting the club drop as you are swinging up to the finish and standing up as fast as possible.

    Hope this addresses your questions. If not, please ask away.

    J. Lynn Griffin
    PPGS Certified Instructor
  • Roy Reed
    For D. Battles: re: hip turn at take-away: Great question !! I didn't find anything specific in looking back thru past blogs (could have missed something, though). You are correct that the "ride-a-skinny-horse" stance limits the amount of turn the hips can make because of the outward pressure on the knees. Personally, I maintain a shoulder-wide stance, feet flat on the ground, lower body as-still-as-possible, and just let my hips rotate as permitted by the "stance". I start the backswing by moving the club head with my hands, wrists, forearms, and shoulders until the 3/4 turn is reached and the club is "in the mitt" and "up the tree". I've found that the slight hip rotation helps to give you that automatic "hip-bump" which brings everything together in the downswing or "forward-up-swing" as it's called. Just my thoughts but it works extremely well for me. Anyone else out there with some "food for thought"?? Hit em straight. R2
  • Tom Stopski
    To Parchaser

    Thanks for the refer to the J.B Holmes Yootube video...I don't know of a better visual illustration and explanation of how to hit with a 3/4 ..NO WRIST COCK swing...Great! I've tried it..feels odd at first, but, has resulted in an impressive increase in my distance. I'm 81 and think I have finally..(after 50+ years of searching) found the holy grail of golf ...for me! Thanks to the PPGS method. Tom
  • Chris Warne
    To John Walowac
    You are probably right, there isn't a single golf swing for everyone (which would include the one you teach if your logic holds) but to call it a joke is letting your ignorance and prejudice show.
    Carmillo won last week with a pretty good 3/4 ish swing and how about Tom Watson?
    You can keep your house, wife and kid - the bet wasn't exactly a sporting one.
  • parchaser
    To John Walowac:
    Two pretty fair golfers that use the 3/4 swing are D.J. Trahan and J.B. Holmes among others.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDITOuFyjmw

    Watch the video but keep your house and family.

    Remember Doug Sanders? He could swing in a telephone booth.

    Parchaser
  • Large clunky heads while they have a larger more effective hitting area, which simply put means you can miss hit off center and still get fairly good distance, also create the problem that makes you hit them off center more.

    It is simple phyics, the further you put the center of gravity from the axis of rotation the more effort it takes to swing and bring the club face back to square. So, what the club companies have done is created the monster that makes you need the monster.

    The "game improvement feature" of irons that makes them easier to hit for the average amateur is the degree of offset. This feature gives the player a bit more time to get the club head back to square through impact.

    So, you can continue to believe the garbage that manufacturers feed you, or believe someone who is int eh business and knows. I fit a high double digit handicap person a bit over a week ago in blade clubs and he hit them as nicely as you could ever want. And, his present set of irons are big clunky game improvement Callaways.

    If big perimeter clubs are so great, why aren't there more sandwedges made this way? Also, blades refers to a design, smaller top line and thinner sole, and it can be muscle back or cavity back.

    There are also a good bit of different blades available without going to "big name" and getting pot luck. KZG and Wishon make some really nice forged blades. But, if you want the mack daddy of forged blades, you want Miuras. There is nothing better don't care what you come up with. Reason? The forgings that other companies used, the double forged process, was invented by Mr. Miura and sold. His present forging process is a 14 step process. Miura has done forgings for Taylormade and Titleist and also makes one well known players clubs.

    So, don't fall victim to believing you can't play a smaller headed club. The key is to find the proper characteristics of the club and shaft that will fit your swing.
  • john walowac
    ... this single type of swing is the answer to everyones individual short comingings in the game of golf is false...After teaching golf for over twenty years the one thing I have learned is that no two swings are the same, from Snead,Hogan,Trevino and Woods they all had there own way of swinging the club and to think they should have followed some other method is insane....

    you hit a round ball into a round hole with a round swing.3/4 turn is a joke show me a long htter with a 3/4 turn and I will give you my house with the wife and kids in it.
  • If you can't break 80, you don't need blades.
  • Glenn Price
    When will you have a clinic in Flordia I have a home in Naples and would like to attend a clinic or at least have a lesson from you if possible Thanks
  • Bob B
    For D. Battles:

    To answer your question on the takeaway, I suggest you read the Feb. 8 post: "Forearm Rotation" which the Surge advises to slightly rotate the forearm in a gradual manner to ensure the leading edge of the clubhead is parallel to the spine angle when the left arm is over the toe line. However, I also suggest that you read the manual pg 61-62, "The perfect takeaway" where Surge advises " Up to the point that you have placed or lifted the clubhead into the mitt, you should make no conscious or forceful movement of your hands, wrists or arms in swinging the club away". I thought this conflicting advice seemed puzzling, and asked Surge for some resolution, but got no answer. Maybe you should try both to see what works. In the manual Takeaway chapter Surge emphasizes the hip rotation a key to the takeaway. No where in the manual does he talk about forearm rotation into the mitt. I am not clear on which is the right way to do it.
  • ajttulp
    Surge- when you refer to "muscle-backed" forged clubs it sounds like you're referring to Mizuno irons? In my opinion the best, most under-marketed irons for amateurs to play. I went from perimeter weighted callaway x-19's to the Mizuno MP 67's and dropped from 14 index to 7 because I really learned how it felt to really hit a golf ball, winning my A flight club championship along the way...I'm now looking to purchase the new MP 58's which feel even sweeter. If you buy into Surge's blade philosophy you HAVE to try these.....I promise I am NOT a Mizuno rep A.J. New Jersey
  • Rod
    I would like to offer this coment to Gary Combs,

    I had the same problem and I have a problem understanding some of the comments and instructions. I certainly don't want to mess you up but after a while using Don's swing, perticulary the up the tree from the catchers mitt.

    I have found that using the butt against the wall practice (That being when you have your butt against the wall in the address position, you are not suposed to hit the wall in your backswing, wit the club head).

    Now I don't know if this is right and even asked about it a couple of times with no answer but here is something that I have determined from straight up the tree while you butt is against the wall.

    At the top of the backswing I measure out from the wall to the club head
    and I measure out from the wall to my hands This makes the club perfectly vertical. Releasing pressure on your grip at the top would allow the club to slide straite down, vertically letting the top of the handle only land on the ground..
    I have found that these measurements should be similar in distance? After I absolutely went straite up the tree in this fashion I don't top the ball. I have never but once hit a 5 par in two until I did this?

    Remember I don't know if this is right or not but it sure made a world of difference for me. Good luck.

    Maybe Don or Mr. Griffin might see this and correct me if I am leading you in the wrong direction. But you can try it, shouldn't hurt? If it does not work don't do it till you hear from one of them.

    Rod
  • Hugh
    Hi, Pro
    You are spot on about the grip pressure. I think too many of us (I am 78) were weaned on the idea of holding the grip too lightly. This is especially true in the short game. I had degenerated into a chili-dipping fool until I firmed up significantly on those little greenside chips. Now I am getting nice loft and good bite on the ball even with a 64 degree wedge.
    Thanks for your good advice.
  • Bill McCabe
    I think we should institute one basic posting rule when we talk about the "advantages" or "disadvantages" of playing blade clubs. And that is simply to have the poster indicate his/her HANDICAP?!?! I'd be willing to bet that the majority of blade enthusiasts who report success are low, single digit handicaps. And that most of us are better off with more forgiving clubs, despite the decrease in feedback. Most of us wouldn't know what to do with the feedback if we could identify it ?

    Any takers? I suggest anyone posting on this site enouraging playing blades reveal their handicap.

    Thanks,

    Bill McCabe
    handicap: 3

    P.S. I play max forgiving cavity back irons
  • D. Battles
    For Roy Reed. Thanks for your comment and for clearing up my confusion. It has been helpful to read the back and forth. I've learned little clarifications to issues like not letting the weight go to the outside of our feet while we press our knees outward. But here is a question. Do we take the club away with our hips or just lift the club from our armpits to the mit and up the tree?
    When we turn away with our hips, the club goes right to the mit, then all we have to do is go up the tree and we are naturally ready to bump back the already semi-turned hips, yes? By pressing the knees outward our hip turn will be somewhat restricted, anyway, it seems to me, so it would be hard to overdo the hip turn, it seems. You see, someone on here suggested turning away with the hips, but I'm not sure Don would say that. Can anyone clarify? Thanks.
  • Roy Reed
    For D. Battles: I believe most of the comments posted on this blog are from "believers" and followers of the PPGS. I have been a PPGS enthusiast since the Surge started this blog, and have found that about 95% of the questions asked in these posts have already been answered multiple times by the Surge and are posted in past archives for our reference. A lot of our fellow golfers like to see responses to their questions, so I just try to help out by going back to those archives and summarizing what has already been taught or explained by Don. The PPGS has done wonders for me personally and I know that it really works. Hit em straight! R2
  • Tom
    Hi,
    Couldn't agree more about the blades.
    Must confess that I got a set just because loads of top pros use 'em, and I thought, "there's a good reason for that!".
    Everyone said that I'd find 'em much harder to hit, that they'd ruin my game, that they were a waste of money.
    Ha! What a load of h-shit.
    Sure, they're NOT as east to hit, but that's actually good.

    You get better feedback on your off-centre hits, and it forces you to hit 'em smooth which pays huge dividends.in shot control, which is exactly what you want with irons.

    But you don't lose distance because you learn to hit hit the sweet-spot more, and they really fly when you do, better than cavity-backs, so you don't need to hit 'em as hard anyway.

    I actually get better distance and better control from the smoother swing and hitting the sweeter sweet spot more often.

    Sure, when I hit a bad one, the result is worse than with cavity-backs, but that just makes it easier to read what I did wrong and tells me I need to focus better for the next iron shot.

    I only wish I'd had them when I started learning.
    I'm sure I'd have picked up a lot fewer bad habits.

    And I didn't even pay that much for them as I had knock-offs made to my size.

    I wouldn't go back to cavities if you paid me too.

    Tom
  • Nick
    jjstone,

    Thanks. I am going back to my faithful swing. I average 275yds. Why fight a good thing.
  • Nick
    Yo Mort,

    Your 82.Give me a break. Thank God your playing golf. Enjoy whatever you can do. You probably will never play better but at least your playing!!!
  • mort goodkin
    don't have picture to send--sorry--mort goodkin
  • mort goodkin
    Hi,
    I await your reply--thanks,

    Mort Goodkin
  • mort goodkin
    Hi,
    I'm the 82 year old who took up golf a few years ago.Never hit the driver more than 175--now hitting 150.At the end of a round I still feel it in the lower back. Took lessons from three different pro's--not much help. Hit fairly straight but no distance. Pitching wedge 60-75 yards. Three wood 145 yards. longing to hit longer.Pretty good putter--fair chipper.

    Reading your book--can't seem to apply it to advantage.I don't rotate & bring the hands back much beyond shoulder, then give a hurried swing. Do have a lower back problem..had neck surgery but can move the neck fairly good. Don't feel comfortable or loose. Was formerly a nationally ranked tennis player=Sr.

    Would love to give some friends better competition. I try but no real improvement with lessons.
    Any ideas??

    Mort Goodkin
  • D. Battles
    While I appreciate getting advice, it would be nice to know by whom we are getting advice. Are trained instructors, authorized by Don T., imparting advice via messages on this comment section? Or are all the comments in this section from PPGS enthusiasts only? For instance, are Ron Reed and Robert Shepherd trained instructors or simply students, like the rest of us? I will still try the suggestions, but I would place a different value on the advice if I knew it was coming pretty straight from the (skinny) horse’s mouth.
  • David Jeffery
    Should your eyes be focused on the ball from take away through backswing and continue though downswing until impact?
blog comments powered by Disqus
10 FREE VIDEO LESSONS
Need Help? Have Questions? Click Here For Live Chat Help!
Don’s Putting Video System:
Recent Comments
Don’s Driver Video Series
Recent Posts
Don’s Inner Circle Membership