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Bruce Chaffin went on the blog and made some positive comments about a golf school. So let’s see what Bruce had to say.
“I just got back a few days ago from a one day PPGS class at the Old South Golf Links in Bluffton, South Carolina. Even though I have been practicing the swing for over a year, I was still having some consistency issues. Turns out even though I was able to get the limited turn and swing, I was dipping my left shoulder that was resulting in a slight reverse tilt. Long story short, my consistence and accuracy are improving rapidly. Thanks Greg.”
Well, thank you Bruce. It’s great you got to go to a golf school and show the importance of how you can be working on a golf swing and getting better and think you’re doing it correctly, but how much more improvement could you get if you get to somebody who knows what he’s doing. He can find out and help you with some little things that are wrong and help you get more fine tuned to swing better.
As far as thanking Greg, I want everybody to know that’s Greg MacDonnell. He’s my head teaching instructor. Greg’s been with me since 1987. When I first came to Harbour Town he was the Head Professional at Harbour Town Golf Links. So Greg and I have been around a long time and Greg is absolutely one of the best.
Again, this shows you the importance of good instruction, correct instruction, especially from someone who knows the Peak Performance Golf Swing. As we know, the Peak Performance Golf Swing is totally different than the vast majority of instruction that’s out there today.
I’m going to use this to give a shout out to the fact that the day doesn’t go by when we don’t get phone calls or questions up on the blog about, “Hey, I live in this place or that place. I’d like to get some instruction on the Peak Performance Golf Swing. Do you have a teacher near me?”
We don’t have that many but we’re working on it. We’re just about done. I hope that within the next thirty days — I know I’ve been saying this for a while, but my heart issue put us back at least three months — to get the Peak Performance Golf Swing Teacher Certification Program launched.
So all of you folks out there who have golf pros you know that have open minds and are willing to learn, tell them about the golf swing, tell them to come to the site and check it out. When the program comes out, it will be there and they’ll be able to get into the program and get certified so they can help you with the Peak Performance Golf Swing.
In the end, I’m going to need the help of all you folks out there to get this message out to the golf pros. We are an independent website. I am a PGA golf professional but the best way to get the message out is through all you folks. Nothing will help you more, like Bruce helped himself by getting to our golf school at Old South Golf Links, and getting that fine tuning, because he got the personal attention of a qualified golf professional.
Keep that in mind. We’ll be announcing it when it gets launched. Tell the golf pro that you know, because there are a lot of pros that always want to learn what’s going on out there and learn what’s best. And we all know that the Peak Performance Golf Swing is the best.
So, again, great going Bruce, glad you’re improving. We have our fall schedule up now for Peak Performance Golf Schools.
The Surge!
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Tell me what you're thinking... and what part of the golf swing, or this great game... you'd like to know more about. If you want your pic to show with your comment, go get a 
Question: I haven't received the product(s) I ordered.
Question: I received 1 or more of the 10 free videos, but I'm missing 1 or more. How do I get the free videos that I'm missing?
Question: I emailed customer service and I never got a response back. How do I get support?
I have talked my wife into taking video movies of my swing, side and front, and then can slow-mo it to various points to compare it to my “manual”. First I discovered that my right arm was not totally 90 degrees, corrected it by nearly 3-4 inches and WALA, 20% more distance, same accuracy. So, I guess that's a start, and until I can escape to one of the wonderful locations such as Harbor Town…it will have to do. I've continued the practice, video's, and of course getting lots more of “dada Do”s done.
I've been using the PPGS for a couple of months now and have always hoped I could find an instructor in Kentucky. Hopefully this will lead to one in my area soon. Another request I've heard talked about on the message boards is the ability to upload videos of our swing and have it analyzed by a PPGS instructor for a fee of course. I know there are many on these boards who would pay for this service. Any plans for this in the near future?
Here's a new one…..I'm having trouble hitting my driver. I am thinking of cutting 1″ to 1.5″ from my 45″ Fujikura “stiff” shaft. I think I have a hard time making a solid PPGS swing with the driver as the shaft length makes it difficult to swing vertical. My frequent miss is a high weak fade or a nasty slice. As a point of reference, I hit my Callaway X 3 wood pretty well – usually about 225 and occasionally rip one 240 to 250. The 3 wood has a standard 42″ steel shaft. My questions are, will cutting down the driver shaft create a problem with the flex, and, should I be considering a “regular” flex shaft? Thank you for the help.
There is not enough pertinent information given to may any wise recommendation. I can say that most people try to play drivers that are too long. But, what you're doing and asking is kind of like try to self diagnose a medical condition and perform your own operation, well, except that this is way more serious than that. LOL
I've already been doing this.
How do I go about doing this with you?
I once took a golf lesson on a cruise in the Carribean. I asked the pro how he got lessons, having another set of eyes for personal guidance is important. The pro said that he video taped his swing and sent it as an attachment to his teacher when he made a port. Video has a limitation in that you only get a 2D vision of the swing (and a live human instructor has the same limitation). The real insight into swing dynamics (kinematics) comes when the instructor can see the swing in full 3D. This is why Surge went to Dr. d for analysis. Value to the golf enthusiast would go way up if students in remote locations could EASILY supply a 3D version of their swing (no markers or vests etc). If we all saw what Bruce Chaffin was doing wrong rather than seeing a word description of it out learning curve would be drastically cut.
The PPGS system is cool because it takes the learning cut and cuts it way way down so we can get results really fast. Speeding the process even faster would take PPGS to the next level. More happy students shooter lower scores … like how much have handicaps fallen with all those PGA pros giving all those lessons?
I know this is off topic but I being a right handed golfer and having problems getting through the ball and up to the T finsh. I cant get up on my back right foot / toe . I do have arthritis in the left ankle and less flexability in the left hip does it make sense to open my stance slightly to allow better turning throught to the left side.
I completely agree that I am doing self diagnosis but I already know if I go to an instuctor in my area they are going to try to take me back to a rotational swing. I have had enough success already with PPGS that I ain't going back where I came from. If I could afford to come see you personally, I would. I guess to narrow my question a bit, it seems to me that if you shorten a club shaft it would then seem act as though it's stiffer due to less leverage, however, if the shorter shaft allows you to make more efficient (faster) swing, maybe it balances out. I don't know how reliable a Speed Stik is but I regularly measure at 105 to 110 making a solid, balanced golf swing (not coming out of my shoes) on that contraption. Again, thanks for your time and any help.
Mr Trahan,
I wish to underline the fact that as easy your method is to understand, occasionnal golfers like me will strugle a lot with the old evils tending to surge at anytime during a round of golf. It is one thing to learn the perfect golf swing, it is another thing to reproduce it consistently if you are not practicing on a regular basis. I agree to say that practicing with a coach should be mandatory for whom wish to have great results. I am using the PPGS since the beginning of this season(may) with some results. Although I have hit the best golf shots of my life during this period, I understand that I am still doing things the wrong way very often and only with the help of a professional teacher (understanding the swing I want to achieve) will I have better results. Am I too pessimistic ?
Pierre,
Quebec
Do you have any instructors
in South Africa?
I would like to know that also.
I know this is off subject, but here goes anyway. I am 63 years old, 12 handicaper. In the last year since using the PPGS swing, I have lost 20 yards average on my driver. My best drives are now about 210 yards. I feel like I am hitting it solid, but no distance. My iron distance is still good. I hit my longer irons good. My 3 iron 190 – 200yds. My short irons are also pretty good. I am 5'7″ tall and now hit a Cleveland XL, 43″ shaft, 10.5 deg, regular shaft. (I switched from a Stiff shaft Cobra to the Cleveland hoping to get some club speed back.) I hit a Cobra, 3 wood nearly the same distance as my driver. I tried hitting my old Cobra again, 10.5 deg. Stiff shaft and hit it about the same distance as my Cleveland. With a longer backswing, I was longer, but not as accurate. Is my backswing too short now? Is it just older age setting in?
Pat:
I have the same problem as you. I hit my new Ping G15 210-215 yards and my 6 iron about 170 yards. I am 64 and 5'7″, and my handicap has increased from an index of 8.1 to 11.1 since Easter, primarily due to driving.
John
DT
I have asked a couple questions and have not received an
answer ? Are there only a few that you answer based on
questions you feel you want to answer ? Or are the tough one
to much to handle ? lol
Chuck
Thanks
Don doesn't usually answer questions. Other long time blog members and those with a better understanding of the PPGS system and myself, will answer questions as best we can. Not all questions get answered unfortunately. If you have a specific question, please email me: thegolfstop@att.net
There are none.
I don't think so.
JLynn, how do I go about getting my swing uploaded to you and how much does it cost?
Hi Don
I am 65 years old with skinny arms and not too many muscles and struggle to drive much more than 150 metres. Do you think a concerted effort to try and build up my arms and shoulders for more strength would make much difference to the distance I hit.
Thanks
Trevor
The cutting of a shaft from the butt end does not substantially increase the stiffness of the shaft. Speed Stiks are hit or miss. You also asked about going to a regular flex. Just what is that? Flex is ambiguous. One company's regular may be another's stiff or senior. So, it's really hard to tell you what to do. Shortening is probably a good idea but you can test the results by choking down on the club. If you do cut it, you have to add back 6 grams of weight to the head for each 1/2″ cut.
You can contact me at: thegolfstop@att.net for instructions.
Through purchasing the on line PPGS instruction document, I have developed what I consider a modified PPGS swing. The area where I could not reconcile the program was with the non wrist cock dictum. Although my swing has shortened with no lack of distance, I still suffered from inconsistency. I am 66 yrs old with an 18 handicap. My drive maxes at 250 and I hit a 7 iron 155. What I do well is hit a punch shot from about 125 on in. I never miss. Why ?? I don't cock or break my wrists. I tried this with the 3 wood and my consistency improved immeasurably. Maybe there is something to this wrist thing. It needs more work but I am becoming a believer.
This is not an answer to your question but are you the same timo from Finland that worked for Ponsse North America out of that country? Just wondering.
I do the swing back to the glove and up to the tree but when I get to the longer irons and driver I am back to where I was before. What do I need to change?.3
I am trying to get my free videos. I went to the link and it ask for me to enter my e-mial but when I do, I get a reply that my e-mial address is no good?????
thanks,
Jam
I just bought this program a week ago and its worthed. I felt better swinging the golf clubs. I am playing for 3 years and your lessons are just right for me. Since you have mentioned the course instruction or school, are you planning to have school or classes in San Diego area. I am a veteran and planning to use my GI Bill for golf lessons. Please advise. thanx/jim
Look below the article for this:
Click here and check out the new
PPGS Golf School Page!
Click on it. It tells you all about the schools.
Mr. Surge, Would you elaborate on degreeing spine tilts to control various flight patterns while maintaining a firm leading knee ? Do you vary the height of the knee bend, vary the tilt , one or the other or both or something entirely different. Thanks for your time and all of your helpful information. Larry
I've been practicing the PPGS for about 3 months now, and do notice a positive change in my consistance, however the one problem I'm having with the 3/4 turn is, in my forward swing, my arms and hands come inside and I swing left. What am I doing wrong to create this problem.
Thanks, Cheryl
Knee flex stays constant. The spine bend would be indicative of how far you are from the ball also. The more bend, the further you can stand from the ball and this will produce more of a right to left ball. The less spine tilt, i.e. standing taller would necessitate you moving closer to the ball which helps promote a fade.
Aloha Surge,
Hope you're feeling better now. I had a heart attack a year ago, and with no surgery and taking my meds, I am finally almost back to normal.
My golf problem is hitting my target when it really counts. When I aim at a definite target in the fairway, I am spot on. But even if it is the same club I just used, I miss the green, some right and some left. I've concentrated on taking a practice swing to get the feel and swinging the feel. I guess it's all in my head, and I hate to be so brain dead! Any ideas?
You're not getting into the mitt and up the tree on the follow through. The follow through is a mirror of the back swing. The 3/4 turn does not make your arms and hands come more from the inside than they should. Look at hip rotation also. If you're hips are rotating and the left heel coming up, you're not keep the knees flared and you are over turning. This can cause what I refer to as the wagon wheel swing. The swing path is more elliptical rather than straight.
The arms don't power the swing … the legs and core do. Learning how to properly sequence your swing so that the core muscles power your turn and allow the arms to swing free and fast will increase your distance.
hi i've been playing golf for 30 years
and still have a problem with coming
over the top on my down swing and
cutting across the ball can you help
me thanks pete
Do you mean the left heel lifting on the back swing? Surely this would only happen with over rotation into the SBG?
When do the knees cease to be flared as I can't see how they can remain so into the finish “up the tree” position.
JLynn, I don't doubt for a second that the generic terms of “stiff”, “regular”, and so on, are inconsistent in their meaning from one manufacturer to another and maybe even one model to another from the same company. Thanks again for your help. I think you have pointed me in the right direction.
Yes, I was referring to the heel lifting. You don't have to go into the SBG just because you over rotate. You can still be vertical and over rotate.
The knees are no longer flared as the weight is transferred to the left side on the down swing.
Please email me for answers, directions, and instructions.
thegolfstop@att.net
Please email me for answers, directions, and instructions.
thegolfstop@att.net
Start the down swing with the hip bump and not a turn of the hips or by initiating the down swing with the shoulders.
Hi Don,
We live in Melbourne Australia and wondering if there is anyone here that you know of who teaches the Peak Performance Golf Swing?
Thanks
Tricia
There is not.
I would love to take my game to the next level and have been trying to teach myself but I would benefit from getting some instruction from a qualified teacher of the system. Do you have any teachers in the Florida area or the Chicago area? Hoping the number of teachers continue to increase around the country.
thanks,
Linda
More on hingeing the wrists.
Once again, the focus on the wrists should be on keeping the wrists neutral, in Surge's dynamic balance.
If you stand at rest, left side toward the mirror, notice that the central vertical axis of the hand is mostly alligned with the forearm central axis, except that the hand is just slightly deviated toward the pinkie. Now if you grip a club, see what happens. The hand deviates further toward the pinkie. This allows the club and the forearm to be on the same line, so the club is an extension of the forearm at set up, as Surge says. But it does pull the hand slightly out of the neutral, or dynamically balanced position.
Now do a slow backswing facing the mirror, and note that the club remains an extension of the forearm until the clubhead is in the mitt. Then start the lift, left forearm parallel to the ground and on the toe line, and get the club vertical. So the club shaft was previously, at set up, on the same line with the forearm, and now, it is perpendicular to the forearm. What changed this angle from roughly 180 degrees to now 90 degrees? The left wrist had to hinge very slightly, or the hand had to deviate, this time toward the thumb side, bringing the hand closer back to the neutral dynamically balanced position.
Remember, at the set up, the hand was deviated toward the pinkie. If this were maintained up the tree, at the top of the backswing the shaft would be pointing way behind you, diagonally up, with no way to get the club vertical. The only way to get the club vertical is to bring the wrist back toward neutral by deviating the hand slightly toward the thumb.
I believe Surge doesn't want to call this “cocking” the wrist, because that is too active a process. Doing this actively, as he tells us he learned from Dr. Armstrong, is likely going to lead either to some bowing or cupping. But we should instead let this left wrist just return toward neutral more passively.
I try to achieve this by letting my shoulders start the backswing, and then, once the clubhead is in the mitt, let my right arm and hand lift up the tree to the end of the backswing, and my left forearm and hand just follow along. So my left hand is pulled out of its original pinkie deviation into a more neutral slight thumbward deviation. I agree with Dr. Armstrong that activating this left wrist will make it much more likely to be pulled into flexion (bowing) or what I've noticed in myself, and probably more common in most golfers, extension (cupping) causing slicing.
So in the strictest sense, yes, there appears to be some hingeing of that left wrist, but it is only to return the wrist toward neutral dynamic balance, and should be more of a passive than an active process.
Comments?
Thanks for your response JLynn. I agree with all you stated. I should have been more precise with my question. I actually want to know more about the toward target / away from target tilt of the spine to control (?) height, if it does. My interest came from watching the Surge vary his trajectory with a driver on you-tube or somewhere. Can you speak to that? Thanks again. Larry
Gil,
Lot's of thought and really good thought but I have to point out some areas that I disagree with. The first is the position of the hands deviation at address. If your hand is deviating towards the pinkie at address then I have to ask why? The grip and hand position at address should not necessitate the bending of the hand “downward”. The thing that causes this move is to have the arms raised up or exerting pressure upwards. The arms should just hang and if this is done there should be no position as you described. At address, my hands and wrist are at the same position as they are at waist high and at the top of the back swing. The flexing doesn't come into play until I start the transition to down swing and the force of the club still going to the top of the back swing. That force must make the wrist hinge and this angle is held as long as possible and the breaking of this angle is what is called THE RELEASE. Again, cocking is not the flexing of the wrist. Cocking is the bowing of the left wrist over top of a cupped right wrist. I have copied and pasted the definition from the PGA web site. The term has been used incorrectly for years. If you'll notice the mention of moving the hands in a clockwise manner, the would mean the left wrist bows and the right wrist cups.
Cocked Wrists: A description of the hinging motion of the wrists during the backswing in which the hands are turned clockwise. Ideally, the wrists are fully cocked at the beginning of the downswing.
Lynn:
I am not quite sure I understand what the flexing/hinging is. Both flex and hinge are a little too ambiguous. Could you clarify this a little? Using the thumb as a reference point, does the thumb move in the direction of the fingers or in the direction opposite of the fingers? Is there any other movement that you can compare it to? Will it happen naturally if I don't think about it?
Through impact your left elbow is sliding back behind you (like you are pull-starting a lawn-mower with your left hand). This is commonly called “chicken-winging”. Most golfers who underturn their hips and shoulders in the follow-through will make this somewhat compensating move to keep the clubhead moving through impact. Usually you leave the face 'open' at impact and hit a lot shots starting left and then turning right (pull-slice). Instead your left elbow should remain in front of your left hip (where it started) as you turn your hips through impact. After impact (with your body facing the target) the elbow can then fold up in front of your body so that your hands will be closer to your left ear. Drill: Keep your elbows close together and in front of your body as you turn back and through, back and through, in a non-stop swinging action. You should also start to feel your right forearm rotate over your left forearm which will help you square up the clubface. Also your right hand and arm will FEEL like they are now swinging more out to the right of your target after impact.
I very much agree with Jim. A key point to my swing and impact is the ability to maintain my wrists in the same position from address to the top of the back swing. I do not want my wrists to cup, bow or hinge. Allowing my wrists to wonder has led to poor accuracy and distance control. My key practice points are in the PPGS drills. I use the Cactus drill to find my range of motion, hands perpendicular drill to keep from rolling the club open or closed, the Toe Line to keep the club in front of me and the proper Top of the Backswing drill to keep from changing my spine angle. The PPGS has given me the most accurate & crisp iron shots I have EVER had. If my woods get a little wild, the wildness is from overswinging – typically using the wrists or altering spine angle. A recap of the swing fundamentals and the woods are just as accurate as the irons. I always wondered how the better players arrived at a beautiful finish position; club & hands at the ear, leading foot rolled to the outside and trailing foot up on the toe – now I know, because the PPGS has put me into that finish position with a good backswing and the swing up.
I am totally satisfied with the results PPGS has given. If you adhere to the fundamentals and rid yourself of ALL past swing thoughts and myths, I believe you will play much better with no discomfort.
Thank you Surge for making golf enjoyable again!
How do I get on the forum ???
Thank you very much Golfguru. Been trying to cure my slice on the driver. Since using PPGS, I lost my distance and kept on slicing the driver. Choked the driver and corrected to a flat wrist. Still sliced but your reply to Cheryl REMINDED me the 'chicken wing' which my best golf instructor kept on saying. This would definitely improve my drives.
May your tribe multiply.
Dear Surge
I have started to use the PPGS with positive results but I really need to find a PPGS trained tutor.Do you have anyone in the UK yet? Or, do you know any US PPGS tutor who may be coming over to the British Open who I could contact.
Many thanks
Bob.
Think of flexing your arm muscle. The hand moves towards the shoulder. Flexing of the wrists has the thumb moving away from the fingers. Put your hand out in front of you with the palm perpendicular to the ground. Stick your thumb straight up and them move it straight back to you. This is flex. Return to start position. Now move the hand so that the top of the hand is moving towards the top of the arm. This is cupped. If you're doing it with the right hand, this would be the position of the hand if you “cocked” the wrist. Return to start position. Now move the palm side of the hand towards the underside of the arm. This is bowing and you should feel the muscles on the top side of the forearm really stretching. This is way out of dynamic balance and we don't want that taking place in the swing.
Sorry but the answer to both questions is no.
You are on the forum.
Lynn, I have to agree with Gil on this one. There is no way I can grip the club and not have the slight deviation toward the pinkie on the left hand that Gil describes. I believe he is completely correct about this. You can clearly see this in the face-on view of Don at address on page 96 of the Foundations manual. Contrast this to the face-on view of the top of the backswing on page 100 and you can see how the slight flexing has taken place, as his left hand is now flexed the other way.
I think we are all in agreement, though, that this flexing is a natural action and is not done consciously, and would, in fact, take a conscious action to stop it from happening.
Sorry, but we can surely disagree on this fact. Even looking at the pictures, I don't see what you see. For the hand to deviate toward the ground or pinkie the hands have to be bent downward toward the ground which is not dynamic balance as it creates a tension in the forearms. If your clubs are the correct length and lie, then the hands and wrists should be in a totally neutral, tension free position at address. Also, if you took the position of Don on page 100 and simply turned his shoulders back to square and put the club on the ground, you'd have just about the same position as you see on page 96. I see students that do the set up as Gil describes. The first thing I do is have them relax the arms which naturally lowers them just a bit and it removes the upward tilt of the wrist on the thumb side and puts them in a neutral position at address. The position of the wrist on top (thumb side) and bottom (pinkie side) should be straight., no angle. If there is an angle then there is something wrong somewhere whether it's carrying the hands too high, too low, improper set up, improper club specs.
I Really appreciate all your e mails and helpful tips so informative, thanks so much Joe Buonomo ps still learning at 86
If you want to see what “cocking” looks like see the front page of the August
Golf Digest with David Leadbetter. You'll notice his early cocking of hands at the wrist. I actually tried this for several months(bought his dvd system before I converted to PPGS) and had limited and inconsistent results.
There is a huge difference between maintaining our angles from set up and the purposeful “big hinge” that Leadbetter teaches.
As for the flat wrist, it is one of the only things I need to focus on as I turn back into the mit. I'll make a few slow moves back(one piece take-away) watching my hands stay flat (and firm). Then do this at actual speed to “feel” it, then only think of the forward upswing. Then down and through with release happens with more consistent power for me this way.
Down the middle,
Robert
Cheryl, do you have the video of Surge in his yellow shirt covering SECRET#4 in detail? Watch and rewatch as he actually shows how the “swing uo to the “T” finsh curse that around the body to the left problem you have. Part of it is likely you are aimed right and your natural correction is pulling you left to get on line.
So check your alignment to see if you're aimed a little left. You know the drop the club by your feet right after your swing method, right? With alignment correct, check by friends eyes or getting your backswing on tape, if you are actually in the SBG. You well might be less verticle than you think. Remember, what goes around comes around, what goes straight up, comes back straight up(if your alignment is correct too).
Hope this helps,
Robert
JLynn, I hate to keep harping on the same subject, but I would like to ask about the wrist hinge coming from a different angle. Please answer or address the issue from this position or perspective. If you, I, or anyone, take our address position with an iron, gripping only with the left hand(for righties), while standing in address position with the one hand grip, use your left hand to lay a straight edge, (i used a wooden ruler) along the upper forearm to the Vee of the hand. Where the ruler passes over the wrist is there supposed to be a gap, the only way i can eliminate a rather large gap, is to flex my hand away from the ruler or down towards the floor. If i use the same straight edge along the under side of my left arm, the only way i can keep the ruler flat is to flex the wrist upward. My question is, should one or the other sides of the forearm have all the gap, or is our neutral position an even split of the gap between both upper and lower sides. By the same token if i hold my left hand straight up so i can look at my palm, and then simulate a grip position with the thumb and fingers, I tend to have a straighter/flatter forearm to wrist span on the pinkie side, again by laying the straight edge along the span, and a rather large gap along the forearm to thumb/ Vee side. So again at address, using a ruler along the upper and lower sides of the forearm to hand/wrist span, where should the gaps be, upper, lower, or even between the two. At my normal address, with my irons, Adams A4os, i have a flat span on the upper side, which naturally creates a gap span on the underside, because the wrist is flexed down. Only one side or the other can be flat, they can both gave gaps, but they can't both be flat. Which is correct using this straight ege test at address with the left hand only. I really do need the clarification to wrap my head around this topic. Thanks.
Is there a way to help me stop my looking up and hitting the ball about the upper hemisphere and on the bottom of the club.
Larry,
For me, hitting a higher trajectory requires me to keep my upper body back into impact (sometimes coupled with placing the ball just a hair forward in my stance); conversely, hitting lower shots is achieved by covering the ball more into impact (Moving the chest over the ball) and maybe placing the ball a smidge back in my stance. Still the same backswing; still pop-tarting up immediately after impact.
Try these suggestions at the range — if they work for you then you can take them to the course.
Good luck,
Michael
JLynn, Excuse the double post, but i thought if i posted this towards the top of the blog, you might notice it sooner.
• JLynn, I hate to keep harping on the same subject, but I would like to ask about the wrist hinge coming from a different angle. Please answer or address the issue from this position or perspective. If you, I, or anyone, take our address position with an iron, gripping only with the left hand(for righties), while standing in address position with the one hand grip, use your other hand to lay a straight edge, (i used a wooden ruler) along the upper forearm to the Vee of the hand. Where the ruler passes over the wrist is there supposed to be a gap, the only way i can eliminate a rather large gap, is to flex my hand away from the ruler or down towards the floor. If i use the same straight edge along the under side of my left arm, the only way i can keep the ruler flat is to flex the wrist upward. My question is, should one or the other sides of the forearm have all the gap, or is our neutral position an even split of the gap between both upper and lower sides. By the same token if i hold my left hand straight up so i can look at my palm, and then simulate a grip position with the thumb and fingers, I tend to have a straighter/flatter forearm to wrist span on the pinkie side, again by laying the straight edge along the span, and a rather large gap along the forearm to thumb/ Vee side. So again at address, using a ruler along the upper and lower sides of the forearm to hand/wrist span, where should the gaps be, upper, lower, or even between the two. At my normal address, with my irons, Adams A4os, i have a flat span on the upper side, which naturally creates a gap span on the underside, because the wrist is flexed down. Only one side or the other can be flat, they can both have gaps, but they can't both be flat. Which is correct using this straight ege test at address with the left hand only. I really
If I'm understanding the verbiage and have the correct mental picture, the answer is there is a gap on both sides. The arm to hand is not flat to begin with. If you just take your hand and set it flat on a table you'll see that the arm down to the hand is not straight. It flares that the heel pad and the thumb pad. So, for either to be flat requires movement of the hand flexed up or down. Actually the part of the wrist that is mentioned as maintaining flatness is the wrist on the back side of the hand where your watch would be. This should have no angle and be straight, i.e. flat. Someone we go off on a tangent looking at the wrist the other way as a hinge up and down. The movement we are talking about is back and forth. Th wrist will move 4 ways, up and down or back and forth. Back and forth is somewhat like just a hand wave. Up and down is like the movement when you shake a finger at someone. Sure hope this helps now.
JLynn, Thanks for the answer, below. No ,i am not talking of wrist flex as in cupping or bowing. I am talking of wrist flexing as in hinging towards pinkie or thumb sides of the forearms. Yes, you are correct, if i lay my arm and hand along a desk, or as i said a straight edge ruler, it is not flat on either side, allthough, it does tend to be flatter along the pad/pinkie side, with just a small gap or offset. So then, is this the natural/neutral position that my wrist to forearm ratio/relationship should be in at address position. If so, this position raises the toe of my iron well off of the floor/ground. For me to sole my irons with a flat lie, i have to flex my wrists slightly down, or the toe stays about an inch above sole level. Does this mean i need to have my irons adjusted for a much flatter lie. I'm not trying to give you a hard time on this issue, I just don't fully understand, When my irons are actually at a level soled head position, my left wrist is most definitely hinged out of neutral towards the floor .
Cheryl, I meant to say “….. see if you might be aimed a little right” and not parallel left as needed.
Then the clubs are too long or the lie angle is wrong. However, what you do statically at address is not the important. In other words, it's better to have the hands in the right position and not worry about what the toe of the club is doing because when you swing you aren't returning the club to the ball with the hands in the same position anyway.
Thanks for your reply, Michael. What you suggest is pretty much what I do now. I just thought perhaps the Surge had another “angle” to working the ball. Since I've pretty much adopted his technique, I didn't want to miss anything. Larry
Per the PGA: “IDEALLY” the wrists are “fully cocked” at the beginning of the downswing.
This seems completely contra to the Surges recommendation “no wrist action is good wrist action”. My understanding of the PPGS is that there is a limited “flexing” of the wrists but even this is too be avoided if possible. Correct?
Thanks. I think I got it.
Reading this has me wondering just what kind of unnatural positions you think are required for the PPGS. Just moving your thumb will change whatever “gap” you perceive. Keep it simple … wrists straight, no active cupping/bowing/hinging/flexing.
If you want to run a “straight edge test” try it on the back of your hand at address
See, this is what is so great about this blog! I know I'm learning something.
When we're standing with our hands just falling at our sides, our wrists are in dynamic balance. If we check in a mirror, we'll notice that, as I mentioned above, the hand is in slight deviation toward the pinkie, even here at rest. If we lean over into the golf posture and the arms hang down properly, still, there is slight hand deviation toward the pinkie, if I'm seeing this right.
When we grip the club properly, fairly firm with the long, ring and pinkie fingers, and more loosely with the index and thumb, I think this pulls the hand into just slightly more pinkie deviation. This is not much; a few degrees at most.
I believe this makes sense anatomically as well. What we do with the grip is somewhat firmly activate the finger flexors on the pinkie side of the hand. There is also a wrist flexor here which maybe we don't intend to activate, but it's hard not to.
Then we have the opposite on the thumb side. We work NOT to activate the flexors on the thumb side, so we are keeping the index, thumb, and wrist flexor on this side relatively relaxed. So with activation on the pinkie side, and relaxation on the thumb side, this would have the tendency to pull the hand ever so slightly pinkie-ward. (I just made that word up!)
If you look on page 96 of the Manual, the face on view makes it look like the angle between Don's left forearm and the club at set up is about 180 degrees. It's not, of course, as we can see on the side view. The clubhead is on the ground in front of him. This makes the shaft forearm angle more like, I'm guessing, about 130 degrees.
Then he rotates the foreams to get the clubhead into the mitt, and he has preserved the roughly 130 degree angle, on page 97.
Then, getting up the tree, we can see on pages 99 and 100 that the angle between the foream and the shaft is much closer to 90 degrees. The angle lost about 40 degrees. Where did it go? I believe that disappeared because of slight deviation of the left hand back toward the thumb, back toward neutral.
Then we can see on page 102, this 90 degrees (roughly) is maintained with the start of the downswing, holding the angle as Lynn describes (which I still find among the most difficult things to do, but getting better).
I agree that if we're seeing a LOT of deviation toward the pinkie at set up, then we'd have to suspect that we're not letting the arms hang straight down. Obviously, if the hands were under the nose rather than below the mouth or chin, (which I've done in the past, but I think I've got that habit finally licked)they are too far out in front, and that would force the hands to be overly deviated toward the pinkie at set up.
Awesome discussion!
Hey Gil, I've been on your side all along, I don't see any other possible way, other than what you describe in both of your posts. I guess i went too far in trying to explain it from a different perspective, with the straight edge method, but, it's impossible to sole any iron, from 4* upright to 4* flat, shaft too long or too short, or just right, without allowing your wrist to slightly hinge or droop towards the pinkie.
If I stand, my hands are in dynamic balance as they hang. I'm sorry but my hands hang evenly and there is no deviation. For there to be any deviation denotes movement. However, I can see how one would think that the hands are tilted slightly down at address as I see it quite often but it's not necessary nor imperative.
You're having a hard time wrapping your head around it because you're looking for the flat wrist in on the wrong part of the hand/wrist/forearm. The human body isn't designed for a straight edge test along the thumb or pinkie edge of the hand. It will pass one on the back of the hand.
BP, Thanks again, but let it go, just like you say above, what i describe as a hunging of the wrist, ” IS SIMPLY THE HANDS NATURAL MOVEMENT TO GRIP THE CLUB” that's all we're trying to say, we know it's there, you know it's there, so quit dancing around the terminology and just admit it, like you did above. In the process of gripping a club, the wrists will naturally hinge/droop/drop/or sag towards the pinkie, we're not saying it's forced, it's natural, just like you say above, NATURAL. In my book natural means it's going to happen, quit saying it dosen't. It's a natural result of taking the grip, you would have to contort your hands to have it not be a natural result. I can't see why you're so affraid to admit it.
forget the straight edge ruler static position stuff. Put a credit card or some other small plastic, somewhat flexible object, in your golf glove on the backside of the hand and close the glove. Now swing and don't bend the card. someone has a commercial product like this but I cant remember who.
Tmedlely2,
I appreciate you trying to tell my what my wrist does when I grip a club, but my hand doesn't droop towards my pinkie. I've gone as far as drawing a line on the back of my hand/forearm to see how my hands are throughout my swing. The line remains straight from gripping the club in front of me through soling it.
If you're actively hinging your wrist in that direction it's either clubs that don't fit or a poor grip. If it's more than a very minor deviation, something is out of balance in the equation.
Good, pronate – supinate.
I believe there are a lot of golfers like myself who have never been fitted for custom clubs and consequently, have adjusted their set-up to compensate. I am short (5'7″”) and have always had to hold my hands abnormally high at address to sole the club properly. This causes the wrist position that he descrbed i.e. with the wrists slightly bent toward the pinkie. This has worked for me and I am one who strongly believes that a wrist cock, if done in the same plane as the forearm, is perfectly ok as it avoids the bowing (hook) or cupping (slice) that is ruinous to the golf swing.
Lee Schwoerer
Then it's not cocking the wrist. Look up the definition of wrist cock on the PGA website.
So your grip and setup are wrong and you're still actively moving your wrists rather than letting inertia do the work ….are there any aspects of the PPGS that you are using?