Don,
I used to have the same problem, but I found if I let the trailing elbow just slide to the rear of the rib cage I'm able to maintain a nice straight arm and take-a-way to the vertical position.
This is not a forced movement, but naturally happens with the take-a-way.
This also works for the upswing, except with the leading elbow.
I find the swing plane to be a little more compact and controlable without sacrificing distance.

Yours turly,

Steve

I am trying to confirm my understanding of your description of the PPGS backswing. If I understand correctly there is a clockwise (righthander) rotation and arm lift to the parallel
position at which point there is a counterclockwise rotation of the arms to move the club shaft
to vertical bringing the clubshaft above the shoulder plane. Thanks
for any clarification.
Happy holidays and thanks for the continued daily advice.
LarryM

Don, I've been applying your principles to my game. I'm trying to follow you as closely as possible. My last trip to the range had me taking divots of gigantic size and to say the least, the next day my hands, shoulders, forearms, everything were sore.

By the time I'd finished, I seemed as confused as ever about my swing.

In addition, the day before this, I was playing golf with a friend, but it seems like what I'd been working on wasn't working. I wasn't able to take to the course what I'd been working on at the range...couldn't quite commit to the new changes.

Just so you know, I was hitting the ball beautifully on the range prior to this

Confused.

I guess it's a matter of definition as to what planes are. Most refer to the plane that the shoulders travel on in relation to the one that the arms and club travel on. So, if you look at it from that stand point, then the case could be made in the opposite since the shoulders turn on a seperate plane than thatof the arms and club. But.....in the PPGS the arms do stay on the same plane throughout the swing so if you want to limit the definition of swing plane to just the arms and club, then it most certainly is a one plane swing.

And, tone of an email surely does give one away regardless of the handle posted to it!

Hi Don,
Hope you and your family had a great Christmas. Wanted to let you that I received your special
offer on the 22nd and tryed to place an order for your Foundations Video Series. I filled out the
order form and submitted it, and a reply came back telling me that my credit card has been
declined because it may not have sufficient funds.This cannot be posible because it is a rather
new card and has been payed up each month.Never the less, I tried to use another card to place
the order and was not able to when another reply came back telling me that I had alredy sunitted
an order and was limited to only one order per person.So now, I do not know if the order went thru
or not. I am hopping it did. Can you please check on this? Thanks for your concern in this matter.
I have enjoyed all the info you have sent me. I can't wait until I am able to get out on the course
again to try it all out. All you have told me makes so much sence. My address is below. Thanks.

Jack Holt
3804 Woodbury Oval
Stow,Ohio 44224

Best wishes for Christmas and the New Year to you and yours Don.

Have been playing for a year (late starter to the game at 56) and following your method. Finally getting it and becoming much more consistent - reasonable length and straight on majority of shots (and percentage of good shots increasing). Your recent driver video is very good and I've finally realised that a drive is just another shot using the same swing method - and using your follow through method is really helping with straightness.

Enjoy your blogs - great advice. Hope you and DJ have a great year in competition.

Steve

Hi Don,

You are supposed to be enjoying Christmas with your family, yet, here you are, giving up your precious family time to post a detailed break-down of the 1 plane / 2 plane swing actions. Your passion and commitment is highly commendable and much appreciated.

I have not been overly concerned about swing plane, as I believe that if, at the top of the backswing, I aim my arm/club head at the target line/back of the ball, then I must be on swing plane. Consequently, I've been somewhat bemused by some blogger's opinions on the swing plane status of the PPGS.

Although I have no technical expertise in the science of the golf swing, I personalIy see the PPGS as a 1 plane swing. My opinion is based on your previous observation that a Ferris Wheel has the perfect 1 plane swing. Accordingly, I am irresistibly drawn to the conclusion that the PPGS is the closest that the human body can get to reproducing a golf swing which will mimic the Ferris Wheel.

Now, Don, you go back to your family Christmas celebrations and enjoy the good times.

Cheers to everyone

Surge,

Well, the student has learned from the Master again! So, now I have to throw out Hardy's explanations!!!!! Indeed it makes sense when you consider just the arms and not the shaft relative to the swing. My flight has been delayed and I'm changing PLANES. I want to discuss this with you further next time so that I have it down. Thanks and Merry Christmas.

jimsha,,, if you watch DJ when he makes the tv it appears like a lot of the pros out there on tour that the putter kind of lets him down. but if you think about it there are dozens of alternative swings you can try but outside of stack and tilt
[which alot of the pros who switched to it have already gone away from it} the PPGS swing is the only one i can think of that has won on the PGA tour. this with only one golfer using it. i've said it before every swing you try will work if you put effort into it but PPGS is the only one i've found so far that lets me play with the back pain i deal with on a daily basis.

Surge,

My apoligies if the question seems offensive, but when do you see DJ contending on a regular basis at or toward the top of the leaderboard in PGA events. I know he ranks somewhere in the higher end of the top 100, which alone I feel is a tremendous accomplishment. I do watch a lot of golf, (generally tape it in order to fast forward through the annoying commercials), and to see him there consistantly would no doubt go a long way in furthering his career, as well as more firmly establishing the PPGS concept which admittingly does have its many sceptics. Is there one aspect of his game that you see that with some improvement might get him there.

many thanks for all you good advise and help with pain free golf, from here in England i wish you and yours all the very best for xmas and a healthy and happy new year, from Barry Reeve.

to SURGE:

RIGHT ON!!

I reallly didn't want to get too "long winded" in my reply to Jerry Foley -- but you are immently correct in 1 plane vs 2 plane. If I recall correctlyl Hogan showed 2 planes in his "pane of glass" illustrations -- one for the backswing and a slightly different plane for the forward/down swing.

PPGS is definetly easier for tempo, rhythm, timing, etc. My former "rotary" swing had the club shaft near 11:00 at the top, but I was forever having to practice tempo and rhythm. With PPGS tempo and rhythm are near automatic. Another point in favor of PPGS being"more efficient"

And as we all know, pain free golf is much more FUN!


Happy Holidays to ALL

AMOS

To Jerry Foley,

To answer your question about if I built a machine to hit balls would I build it to swing on one plane or two planes.

Absolutely one plane...Which is what the PPGS is. Let me clear the air on this one and two plane swing mix up.

NOTE: I am going to get detailed and technical in this response and may loose some of you. For that I apologize now. But, I think I need to respond to this 1 plane/2 plane, flat/vertical dilemma and set the facts straight as they will speak for themselves. I will also schedule discussing this in length, detail and simplicity in an instruction video the next time we shoot. Seeing me swing and demonstrate will certainly help simplify the details.

The creator of this one plane two plane definition (FLAT SWING as you call it), I believe created terms to fit his beliefs and are actually incorrect. Let;s start with the simple fact that he has in his definition of the 1 plane swing 2 planes. I will describe this as I understand it to be.

There is the shaft plane at address so this is "Plane # 1." The takeaway is on the "SHAFT PLANE" to club parallel to the ground. From there the arms lift the club up to the "SHOULDER PLANE" which is now 'Plane #2" which is the top of the backswing. The club shaft orientation is around 10:00 o'clock if there was a clock behind the player and thus is called the FLAT swing.

From the top of the back swing the arms swing the club back down to the SHAFT plane to approach the ball at impact. The club remains on the shaft plane through impact to shaft parallel to the ground where the arms now lift the club back up to the SHOULDER plane.

Since you asked me a question I hope you will allow me the courtesy of asking you one.

How can this swing be called a 1 plane swing when in it's definition it names 2 planes (SHAFT and SHOULDER) never mind the the shaft changes from and onto them 3 times.

Another question that needs to be asked (which I will answer right here) is; What swings on the plane...The SHAFT or the ARMS? Most instructors and players believe it is the shaft. I contend IT IS THE ARMS! Why the arms? Because the arms swing the club. The club is nothing without the arms swinging it. IT IS THE ARMS THAT SWING ON PLANE, not the club.

And, let us not forget your reference of a machine swinging on one plane is simple because the club can be locked in at a right angle into the axle swinging it. But unfortunately, a club in a human hand connected to a human arm and shoulder in a ball and socket joint is not a right angle connection. And it moves though rotation of the entire appendage for the socket connection point to the tips of the fingers. We cannot forget this point of human physiology as it applies to swinging a club or bat or whatever versus a right angel connection of a non rotation mechanical device.

Now, let's discuss the PPGS and see if it is as it has been labeled a 2 plane swing or maybe could the PPGS be the real one and only 1 plane swing. I believe Plane is the angle or line through the neck resting on the shoulders and extending down to the ball as Mr Hogan described in his "Pane of Glass" description.

At address, for any swing theory, the arms would not touch the shoulder to ball Pane of Glass plane. But as in the PPGS takeaway lifting the club up into the mitt both arms rotate and lift until the shaft is parallel to the ground. The forward arm (left for a right hander) which is higher than the back arm is now touching the underside of the plane/pane of glass. The forward arm, forearm and back of the wrist will stay touching the underside of the plane all the way to the top of the back swing. Is this not staying on 1 PLANE?

Now, in the transition and downswing, the forward or left arm for a right hander, remains brushing the underside of the plane all the way down until just before impact around parallel to the ground, where the arms begin to rotate the club square on the aiming line for impact. At this point the forward arm comes off below the plane due to the rotation which has the back or right arm for a right hander climbing over the forward arm. The back or right arm and back of the wrist is now in contact with the underside of the PLANE from there all the way to the top of the finish.

To simplify, the forward arm and wrist is in touch with the SAME PLANE in the back swing from the club parallel to the ground all the way to the top and back down to parallel. The back arm through arm rotation approaching impact now contacts the same plane at around club parallel to the ground in the forward swing and stays touching the SAME PLANE all the way to the finish. Again I ask: Is this not staying on 1 plane? And now is it not staying on the ONE SAME PLANE in both the back swing and forward up swing?

The PPGS starts and deals with only 1 plane and 1 plane only. The plane resting on the shoulders down to the ball.

The FLAT SWING starts with 2 planes, shaft and shoulder, swings on each and changes from one to the other 3 times. How can this be called a 1 plane swing when you define and deal with 2 planes?

Now. let's examine the shaft to plane relative to the flat 10:00 o'clock position at the top of the backs swing. The flat swing proponents say at this 10:00 o'clock position the shaft and forward arm and hand are both on the shoulder plane and are the same and thus get the 1 plane designation.

They claim the PPGS at the top of the back swing, that with the shaft vertical to the ground and the forward arm is not vertical we are on two planes and thus we get the 2 plane designation.

Now, I will give you and everyone a test that will shed some very valuable light on this plane issue.

Let us start with the flat swing top of back swing position of the forward (left for a rightie) arm and shaft on the same plane. From your shoulder socket draw a line down the center of your forward arm to the grip. From the grip up the shaft to the club head. Add then from the club head back down to the shoulder socket completing the formation of a triangle.

Now the big test. Once in this position, maintain all you arm and hand to club angles (and the triangle) and "just rotate" both arms equally to raise the club from the flat 10:00 o'clock, to vertical up to 12:00 o'clock.

Question: Did anything change between your forward (left for a rightie) arm and club and the triangle when you raised it from flat to vertical?

If you are like everyone I have ever given this test to the answer is NO. Nothing changed in the triangle from the flat to vertical position.

The only thing that changed was the shaft position to the ground due to the rotation of the arms.

Another way to see and clarify this is if you had a spike through your forward arm in the same alignment as the club face at the top of the back swing in the flat position, this spike to club face alignment would be the same at the top of the vertical position. Again, nothing changed in the arm to shaft to shoulder triangle.

The concept of plane, as I believe has to be only relative to the plane the arms swing on as the club moves only because of the arms. To relate plane to the shaft, and deal with a shaft plane and shoulder plane, 2 planes which are changed 3 times I believe is more difficult and cannot in any way shape or form be swinging on 1 plane and be more simple and consistent. I also contend that in your 40 years playing more vertical, your inconsistency you mention was due more to the big shoulder turn, likely parallel back swing and much more leg motion taught at that time than we do in the PPGS limited turn 3/4 backswing.

The PPGS on the other hand has the arms swinging on 1 plane in the back swing, the downswing and then back up in the forward up swing. The shaft and forward arm are in the exact same triangle orientation as the flat swing, but in a different vertical orientation and relationship to the ground due to arm rotation. .

One last Question (like the machine question) relative to the flat swing shaft at 10:00 at the top of the back swing versus the PPGS vertical 12:00 o'clock shaft position. I am asking you to hold any club at 10:00 and at 12:00 o'clock. Question: Which club will you hold up longer and with less stress and strain and energy consumption? Again, every golfer, I have ever asked, gave the the same answer...The vertical 12:00 o'clock club. Why? because it is in harmony with GRAVITY. Here is physics again slipping into the picture as well as physiology because human arms swing only up and down in front of the body in harmony with gravity.

The PPGS vertical swing is on 1 plane throughout the swing. How can it be called a 2 plane swing? It can't because it is the true 1 Plane swing. The facts and the physics and physiology speak for themselves. This is not semantics this is fact.

The Surge!

Just wanted to wish you Merry Christmas and many blessings in the New Year!

Hi Don:

I appreciate your instruction. The first thing I noticed from your instruction was consistency-then accuracy.

Here's wishing you and yours a very Merry Christmas and a Special 2010!

Bill

Hello Don,

I enjoyed your video on the driver with D.J.
I think the only difference from your book is it is in video?

Happy Birthday, Merry Christmas and New Years!

Rod

Great Instruction !!!!

Best Wishes to you and Family for the Merriest of Christmases!!

God Bless!!!!!


Bill Evans & Family

Thank you for all emails received to date, Happy Christmas to you and DJ.

Rgds Margaret

to JERRY :

That depends entirely on the person -- and on how you measure "efficentcy"

If you are young and strong and fleible, the rotary "one plane" swing will work well. I used on for years --- and hit straight shots reasonably long.

However with advancing years, loss of flexibility, and illenesses, I can no longer use that swing -- it produces terrible lower back pains after about 14 or 15 holes. The PPGS swing is as simple as the rotary swing -- although at first it will "feel" like a two plane swing, with practice it becomes as smooth as a "one plane" swing. PPGS is at least as accurate and nearly as long as my former swing.

So if you care for you BODY - then the PPGS is definitely more efficient.

Happy Holidays

AMOS

Mr. Folley,

The one and two plane swing has to do with the plane that the club is on relative to the shoulders. One plane: club and shoulders on the same plane in space Two plane: club and shoulders on different planes. It does not have to do with the planes of swinging or the club path taking different directions. If you ask Mike, he'll tell you the Furyk is a two plane swinger. To verify this, look at his club and shoulders at the top of his back swing. What happens before and after does not related to being a one or two plane swinger. Perfect historical examples would be Hogan early days (one plane) and Bobby Jones (two plane). The one plane swing is of less stress on the back of the two as there is not a much building of resistance between the trunk or torso and hips. There also less moving parts in the one plane swing. The sad case is that, historically, most teachers before the early on in this decade all taught the two plane swing as it was considered the more traditional. Now, as it relates to the PPGS, it would be considered a two plane swing. However, it does not build the same stress in the back as the more traditional two plane swing. Also, since you are taking the club back, up, down, up, there is very little deviation off the path at all. When applied correctly, it's a quite simple swing to execute. The problem is that most people do not want to take the time and invest in bringing about the change. It does take some effort to unlearn the past motor skill and retrain the brain and body and complete an old task a new way.

So, biomechanically, the PPGS swing has been proven to be the most efficient swing and the swing with the least amout of stress inducing movements. For people that want to prevent injury, it's a logical swing choice. For those who already have injuries, aches, pains, etc., it is a blessing to be able to use the PPGS method and play pain free.

Merry Christmas!! and a bless 2010!

Don,

Just a quick note to wish you and your family happy holidays. I've only picked up the game a few months ago and I took the PPGS and your advice from the start. I have to say I have people here in Italy who play of 3 that think i'm doing fantastic for such a short period.

Many thanks and Merry Christmas

Matt

Interesting thought on rejecting unwanted instruction. When I was just beginning High School many year ago I had a very "flat" swing. I was approached by the head golf coach of a major university who happened to see me play and offered to help me. The first thing he got me to change was to an "upright" swing. For the next forty years I played with this swing and although I had a scratch handicap I never had the consistency needed to play at the competitive level I was hoping for. In later years I learned that my original "flat" swing was really an "on-plane" swing and would have been a far easier swing to repeat than the two-planed upright swing I had used for so many years. I know the Surge teaches a swing that works for his students and that is really all that matters. I am not advocating that one swing method is "better" than another but I do believe a single-planed simple swing is easier to repeat since the swingpath remains constant on the way back and on the way back to the ball. There simply are fewer things to go wrong during this swing than any other. Now, this is not to say that the PPGS doesn't work or in fact won't provide relief to those with back problems. That is not my point. You may react by saying there are many many touring pro's with upright or two-planed swings. My team mate from college golf caddies for Jim Furyk and Jim has more planes than anyone. But most of us aren't in that league so we must learn a swing that just plain works. Any way you slice it, if the club isn't coming back to the ball parallel to the target line with a square face it's going cock-eyed. If an upright swing works for you then super. But a single plane swing is easier, that's all. Look at it this way, if you built a "swing machine" that was mechanical and controlled with computer software, would you build it to have a simple one-plane or a two-plane swing path? Your body is a machine with the spine as the axis or axle and the arms circling around it, coiling to provide torque in order to generate swing speed. Which way would you guess is most efficient?

Surge,
Very happy holidays to you and your's.
Ney

Don,

Good advice on "tips and suggestions" from playing partners. There is a phrase we teach our students that works like magic; it is: "Thanks, I'll discuss this with my coach in my next lesson." Only a very rude person would press his advice after this line is delivered nor would they expect you to take their advice right away.

The problem with my friends giving advice is that they are not any better ball strikers than I am. My best friend is always trying to help me and gets miffed when I don't offer him advice. I finally told him he was standing too close to the ball after he hit it. He hasn't asked for help since.

Happy holidays to all!!

Dear Surge,

I agree with yor comments about the arms and that tucking the rear arm (right arm for a right handed golfer) is disaster. For the purposes of illustration, would you say that it would accurately demonstrate what you are saying if a person would understand that a vertical swing is a direct result of lift your arms AWAY FROM YOUR BODY? For illustration purposes, woould you agree that at address, with the PPGS knees, a player can feel how the PPGS swing works by just lifting their arms in front of them, without any backswing whatsoever? LIFTING YOUR ARMS OVER YOUR HEAD AT ADDRESS THEN MAKING YOUR 70 DEGREE TURN WILL PUT YOU IN EXACTALY THE CORREST PPGS POSITION, SAME AS THE CATCHER'S MITT AND GOING UP THE TREE?

Based on the questions I am reading, I just thought this might help illustrate your swing and simplify how to achieve it.

Thanks Surge for your expert advice. Merry Christmas to you, D.J. and your families. You have given all of us an on going Christmas present. Now what can we give you in return??

Ken Genz

Don,

Spot on with this advice about forward arm being the boss and anyone who follows this can say, "BYE BYE GOLF BALL" ... because if they haven't done it prior to this, they'll add so much more yardage. Impact will be more consistent, the feel and sound will be solid and it'll take no more effort than they were already using.

As they scream at the PGA tournaments, "YOU DA MAN!"
thom

Surge,

Do you think getting an alignment mirror that lays on the ground in front of you to check for shoulder and hip alignment is a good idea?

The Surge: Thank you very much for the outstanding blog and for your willingness to share your vast golf knowledge with us. Your insight and patience are greatly appreciated! I hope you have a very Merry Christmas. Roy R.

Barry B,

Assuming you are a member of the inner circle, you should see the driver video under the listing MY PRODUCTS.

Amos,
Merry Christmas my friend and continued healing of the ankle. I'm anxious to see what happens when you are able to see the fitter. Have a safe trip where ever your travels may take you.

To SURGE and ALL :

Have a MERRY CHRISTMAS and a HAPPY NEW YEAR!!

I will be out of town for week or so -- I anticipate MUCH reading to "catch up" when I return home. lol


Amos

Don:

Regarding friends offering instruction, I usually say, "Thanks, but I've learned that free lessons are worth about what I pay for them."

What do you think of the Tally mind set? Have you seen it ?

Merry X mas to you to Don and all of your family. Thanks for the deal on the Driver Videos, I was upset at first when the members did not get a deal. Glad I waited. Have a great holiday. It's snow up here and little time to practice. I can't wait for spring. Sincerely, Sako

Hey Don

Thanks much..... I love your approach to the game and the way you put it across!

Merry Xmas to you and your family........Joe