Friday, July 30, 2010

The Proper Distance to Stand from the Ball at Address

- Audio version at the end of this post –

During a recent lesson I was asked by a student, with a combination statement and question,  that he had read or been told you can never stand too close to the ball. And he asked, in fact, if that was correct. Well, I immediately answered, “Absolutely not. You can definitely stand too close.”

Heck, if we can stand too far where we’re reaching or stretching for the ball that takes us out of dynamic balance. It should be obvious that the exact opposite could be true. We can stand too close to the ball and be out of dynamic balance. In fact, being  way too close to the ball, we’re in trouble when we swing down with our hands and arms and club to impact the ball. We could very likely start bumping our arms into our body or into our hips or into our legs and have to spin out of the shot too fast to make room. So yes, we can definitely stand too close.

But the thing that really got me thinking after that lesson for the last couple of days is that over all my years of teaching I’ve heard that question asked of me probably 100 times or more, but I’ve never had anybody ever ask me can you stand too far from the ball or reach too much for the ball?

Where did this thing ever get going that you can never stand too close? I guess it’s another one of these old wives’ tales or misconceptions that got going. But you obviously can stand too close and the body can be in the way of your arms and hands to approach the ball properly so your arms can extend out and square the club up and swing through and up to the T-Finish.

I’ve got a pretty good way you can judge that you are at the proper extension from the ball. Naturally, we know you have to be in dynamic balance, that is the weight has to be centered over or in the arches with the arms hanging relatively straight down. The way that I’ve always taught it is that when you take your athletically ready address position and you hang your arms down, if you were to look down and take a point from right where your two hands touch on the golf club, which would be your upper hand on the club. Take that very top knuckle, which is where your bottom hand would be resting of against it, draw a line straight towards your face. Proper extension would be that the line should come up somewhere between the chin and the nose.

We could maybe allow it a little bit inside the chin, not much, no more than an inch, and a little outside the nose, maybe to the eyebrows, as a margin there and test to see what works for you. But draw that line straight up, as I said, between the chin and the nose. That would mean your arms are hanging in the proper distance from the ball.

The key to all this is that many of us tend to reach too much. Why? Because reaching for the ball feels strong. If your muscles are stretched out in your arms, it feels strong and that strength give you the feeling that you can make a very powerful golf swing. But, unfortunately, when you start reaching too far, it tends to make the body bend over at the waist too much. Now what happens is that your center of gravity and your center of swing get out of balance.

The center of gravity of the body is at a point at the base of the spine. The center of gravity for the swing  is at the other end of your spine, your sternum. With the Peak Performance Swing we swing quite vertically on the maximum vertical in line plane. That means, as we turn and lift the club into the catcher’s mitt and up the tree, the front shoulder comes up to underneath your chin at the top of your sternum.

Conversely, when we swing downward and as we turn and start swinging up to the finish, as we stand up and swing up, the back shoulder comes up underneath the chin. That shows that the connecting points of the arms, which are in the shoulder sockets, the back swing lifts up to the sternum and the forward swing lifts up to the sternum. That means we are swinging around our shoulder  and that allows the very vertical golf swing we use.

Check that line out and see where your hands fall and you’ll find out what is right and what is wrong. Being directly in line with the chin up under the nose is the place you want for proper extension at address for the ball.

The Surge!

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  • Both distance from the ball and shaft angle are now correct - and this drill ... Address procedure. First
  • well, What's the right distance to stand away from the golf ball? ... is the angle that is created between your club-shaft!
  • Surge, you wrote, "The way that I’ve always taught it is that when you take your athletically ready address position and you hang your arms down, if you were to look down and take a point from right where your two hands touch on the golf club, which would be your upper hand on the club. Take that very top knuckle, which is where your bottom hand would be resting of against it, draw a line straight towards your face. Proper extension would be that the line should come up somewhere between the chin and the nose."

    Trouble is that a line is defined by TWO points. If a point from right where your two hands touch on the golf club is the first point, what is the second point that defines the line?.

    Jay
  • Robert
    John

    Sorry about the Hank shot, John is your frustration about the techneque your trying to learn or is your frustration due to you cannot implement this techneque into your swing to hit the ball more consistantly. I feel for ya, I think we have all been there "BUT" you know and I know what your problem is, you have ingraved so many bad habits into your swing that by just reading the manual and watching video's your not having the success you want. On a personnal level I don't know if I could have understood to use the PPGS when I first started golfing. Even with this swing change your going to have to learn to crawl, then walk before you can run, personnally I use about 75 percent of the PPGS thougths in my swing and I'm hitting the ball more solidly, my explination for this is, remember, you can only change one thing at a time or work on one thing at a time for the mind and body to be able to perform each task successfully, Most important message in this swing is skipping the rock turning over the hands to the T finish, don't worry to much to be exactly being vertical in the back swing and don't worry to much about popping up like a pop tart out of a toaster. All of us in this blog have taken something from all of this to help us with our swings, I honestly think we all hope you can improve as well, so what can I or anyone else in this blog do to help John or anyone else who is having difficulty learning this techneque. I'm a golfer and so are you lets help, and keep on asking questions. I do believe the hands still have to have timing, the rotational swing the timing has to be perfect because of the arcor plane, the PPGS still needs timing of the hands but a lot less because of the vertical position in the back swing which doesn't create such a round about arc/plane, if you are experienced at using the tool correctly you would understand that this swing is easier to use then the rotational swing it takes a lot of moving parts out of the equation to simplifly this techneque.
  • Jim Morrow
    I found a way to measure to and aim the ball. This method puts the ball in the same place every time for each particular club. Place both hands on the club in your normal grip then remove the left hand (right handed golfers). Place the club behind the ball with your right hand and aim using your palm being perpendicular to the target or aiming point. Place your feet together with the ball aligned with the ball exactly in the middle of your stand (feet together). If you are in the right position, your hands are under your chin. Now take a small step toward the target with your left foot and a larger one with your right foot. This puts the ball in the right location for each specific club. You can vary the length of the steps to adapt to special shots where you need a specific trajectory. For instance, I have three shots for 5-W, back in the stance for a punch into the wind, normal position as described, and off the left heel for a higher trajectory.

    This method has eliminated me chasing the ball in my stance. Please note this puts the ball in the same location for each specific club but not the same location for all clubs.

    I enjoyed a great weekend striking the ball with my PPGS swing. Good solid 2 over, 13 greens in regulation, 2 birdies, and 4 bogies. Seven putts for birdies from around 10 feet. Just punched greens so putting was bumpy.

    No sore back this morning either. Yeah!!!

    Don, as always thanks for your contribution to the game. Jim
  • jimsha
    Lee,

    Check out Ernest Jones' book "swing the clubhead" method. Over some 70 years ago this man recognized the fastest and easiest path to learning to swing the golf club effectively and consistently.
  • John Antonucci
    Larry Mullett.. gee you must of had a nice childhood with that name.. there is my last name.. What is the difference.. Did you want to meet me and date me or something?? Just curious to know what the difference is.. As to your post.. The reason I post is the same reason people post reviews. To let others know that this is all about marketing. I give praise to Mr Trahan for his marketing skills and to those that this swing helps. So maybe you should actually read the posts instead of chopping your lips where you shouldnt be. I post for those that may be on the verge of deciding to buy the program what to expect from it. Give them a fair opportunity about the product. Mr Trahan gives his marketing side, I give my consumer side. If you dont like it.. Dont know what to tell you.. Mullett.. too funny..
  • John
    First to Dean..
    Yes I have followed Don's videos (from what you can follow). Its not easy watching videos from the waist up. I have read the manual as well.. Have have tried to implement this swing many times both at the range and on the course. Just keep in mind a vertical swing (which this is) is NOT for everyone. For one at least for me it causes an over the top move. And your stand up as fast as possible.. or the marketing way.. Like a toast popping out of a toaster causes Topping of the ball like you wont believe. And as you so pointed out.. the loss of distance especially with my driver. And im sure you read a lot of posts on here as I have and see that there are MANY golfers that are slicing the driver. Well that's because the vertical is causing the over top and the coming across of the ball. So to answer your question (since Don himself can ask or answer posts other then those that praise him as I see on here that he answered well if it actually him doing the answering). Yes I have seen the videos, yes I have implemented the swing, yes I have read the manual, yes I have pre loaded heavy left since im lefthanded. All Yes to your question. As I said to me this swing is for those older players with bad backs to help hit it straight. For me.. Im tired of topping, hitting off the toe and losing distance due to this swing.. To each is own.

    Now for Robert.. YOU MUST BE KIDDING RIGHT???? You think Surge can cure Charles Barkley?? Yeah Hank Haney is only the coach of the best player ever to pick up a golf club. amongst others.. That theory is so shot its not even funny.... Good try though...


    John..
  • DaveP
    Surge,
    I am wondering if it would be good to caution everyone to be sure they have their head in the proper position when checking to see if the straight line is between the chin and the nose? It doesn't take much of a tilt of the head (usually too far downward) to throw off the measurement.

    I also have to say it is somewhat amazing how many bolg postings are not about the daily posting or even about the golf swing.

    Thanks for your last several instruction topics, they are helpful for understanding the set up and/or swing.
  • Charlie B
    If you are using a point between your nose and chin as a reference point, would hanging a weighted string from your mouth be a good way of determining that point? PS thanks for all the great tips!!
  • stephen trattner
    I am a beginner at age 65 and have found your videos very helpful. I live in the DC area. Is there any PGA pro who has been certified by you to teach your method?

    Did you have a 2-3 day school where you give lessons? If so, where is it located and can you send me details, e.g dates, prices ect.

    Thank you.

    Steve
  • LEE
    Hi Surge,

    I am sure you know Jim Flick and probably played golf with him. As you know, JF is an advocate of "feel the clubhead" during the entire swing. Doesn't the vertical PPGS make feeling the clubhead more difficult? Would you be wlling to comment on this issue of "feeling the clubhead"

    Respectully - one of your customers
  • Wim van Eesteren
    Hi Don,
    Your emails and some videos I am following for several months. During the winter it was not possible, but since a few weeks I started to excercise your PPGS. Almost all balls are going straight. Excepted for the driver, there is satisfaction about the distances.
    Advantage: I have no low back pain or neck pain anymore. Disadvantage: after playing golf I have pain in my knee joints the days after. I believe it is caused by the fixed stance with wide knees during the backswing, which produces a lot of tension and compression on the knee joints.
    Although I did not read about it, I believe I cannot be the only one with this complain.
    Regards,
    Wim van Eesteren, The Netherlands.
  • BRUCELESTER
    HEEELP! I DONT LIKE LOOSING MONEY, TELL ME HOWNTOGET OFF TEEE BOX 55YRS OLD SWING SPEEED ABOUT 60 with driver My handicap ois 17 , but issuetobe 7 when i hit wolid still short, bad let bknee since 9 yrs old :
  • Larry,
    The hrbrids are played more forward as they are struck with an ascending blow and if you place the ball in the middle of your stance, this becomes impossible.
  • Harry,
    You are obviously a man wise beyond your ears! (no typo)
  • The Surge!
    To Jim Bourgue,

    Since you say you are hitting extreme pulls and do not say anything about hooking them I am assuming they are straight pulls.

    These can be caused by an number of problems beginning with bad alignment, aiming right where you are hitting it. Another is ball position too far forward. Swing issues could be too much turn in the backswng causing your body to have turn or spin out of the way to get your hands around and to the ball. Then there is the reverse weight shift or transfer which also opens the torso and swinging straight down the line is a pull.

    The options for the pull are varied. Check these suggestions out as they are all primary causes of pulls.

    The Surge!
  • The Surge!
    Richard,

    Regarding the catcher's mitt an tree concept, they are covered in videos and in many daily articles that are in the archives.

    For a quick point. Yes, the mitt and up the tree sounds like it can be a 2 piece move. What it is a smooth lift up into the mitt and a continuing of that lift and sweep through the mitt and up the tree all in one lifting an sweeping up motion from the takeaway to the top of the backswing. .

    The Surge!
  • Jim Fahy
    Normally I'm a fairly visual person but this is the most confusing image I have encountered in some time!
  • NOT Harry
    Harry,
    You freakin dipshit. Do you realize you said you have bought them all? "Not because you keeded them".

    ROFLMAO!!!!

    Sounds like someone got burned on a Buy Real-estate infommercial.

    Nobody needs to hear you blather. We are genuinely trying to improve our games.

    Apparently you are a pro cause "you don't need it" LMAO!!!


    Go back to yelling obscenities at your neighbor Harry.
  • The Surge!
    To Larry,

    Regarding ball position for the higher lofted hybrids than the fairway metals. you ask if they should be put back more to ward the center of the stance that the left heel as for the fairway woods.

    I would say the higher lofted hybrids can go back a little from the forward heel. I would not say that they should not get near the center of the stance. They still need to be a little forward as we want to hit them higher and that happens from a more forward ball position.

    The key is there are no absolutes. We each need the basics and then for our swings and clubs we need to find the optimum ball position that gives us the solid impact, and ball flight in terms of accuracy and height that we want.

    The Surge!
  • miguel
    Hello Don, the way it feels are, one if your are too close your rigth elbow will hit your ribs and if you are too far you will hurt your back or hips for over extending.
    Don you never told me which site can I, use to see when you son DJ, plays,
  • John S
    Hi, All, I have finally got out of the 90s and into the 80s, while I dont completely adhere to all Dons 'rules' I have incorporated most into my game, I love the solid foundation, quiet lower body, that has improved my swing and accuracy enormously, Like others I had big slices with my driver, but I added a cock wrist, my driver then straightened, and got extra distance., I use Dons technique when I deliberatly wanr to slice or fade, but not for normal, strong winds dont help either.
    To the Whingers and complainers, I suggest you take up smoking,, then you will have something to compain about. Try playing Darts, you will soon see there is a distinctly correct way to consistently hitting the number you want, I liken a lot of Dons points to that game, I was 30 yrs ago an international dart player, so I think I can talk about correctness in you swing or your throw.
    John S
  • Robert Thompson
    To R.Schindle,

    "when i aline my put to centre of the hole i miss my puts consistantly1 to2inches right of the hole "

    It is very likely that your alignment ritual needs to be tweaked. I bet you are standing parallel to the target line, and then aiming your shot. This will almost always introduce an error due to the fact that your eyeballs are curved instead of flat.

    A better and more accurate way to align your putt is to first, stand behind your ball and choose your target line. This allows your eyes to focus more accurately, because they both equadistant from your ball and from your target. This helps to eliminate the optical illusion which occurs when you are standing parallel to the target line.

    If you ever watch the pros, which I'm sure you do, take note of how they align their putts. Most of them will site along the shaft of their putter, from the ball to the cup, or to the apex of the break. They then select a spot in front of their ball along the shaft, and use this as their target. It is much easier to aim at something a few inches away than it is to aim at something that is forty feet away.

    Once you have identified an intermediate target, align yourself parallel to the line formed by the ball and this intermediate target. I bet you will see a marked improvement in your putting, and your consistent misses to the right will be a thing of the past.

    One more thing, if you wear bifocals or progressive lenses, consider having a set of glasses made without the progressive element in them just for when you play golf. Your overall golf game will improve imensely.

    Hit'em Long and Straight,
    Bob
  • kjk leojgf
    Gary hennesey, are you a total moron?
  • Hey Guys, ENOUGH! Let's kinda try to keep this to sharing our ideas together and not point / counter point......please. I do lilke this site and am amazied how Don and JG keep putting out this information Monday thru Friday.............my hat's off to them. I know, I like Don and JG too and it's hard not to come to their defense. But once we start, its like dominoes falling and that's all we get to read.

    Now, JG, my sincere thanks for your help on getting me to "perform the Bump" I know guys/gals this is going to sound really dumb, but I spent the last 2 days throwing rocks into a pond to feel the bump. It did really work! I previously was throwing golf balls by hand and also baseballs but it stiill could not get me to feel the bump. I think "for me" my concentrating hard on making the rock "skip", that I finally grooved it into a feeling. (You cannot beleive how many one skip and sink and rocks thrown too high and flop into the pond I threw). My next step of course was to take that feeling back to the practice range. J.G. I can honestly tell you that it did the trick for me.

    I hit the ball so much more smoothly and longer that I was amazed. ALL my irons, hybrids, 5 wood and 3 wood went so straight down the line. My driver seems to be fading a bit right, but I think I can work that out with practice. Also, I was hitting a draw on many balls. I sure do like how draws seem to roll further. I really want to perfect the how and why of that shot. I know I was NEVER performing this lateral shift left on any down-swing / Up swing in 37 years of playing golf. Gosh darn, I wish I could go back in time .

    One last comment, as I was watching the father / son Bonus tapes 2 days ago and I saw that DJ was turning his forearms at take away so that by the time his forward hand was even with his right thigh, I could easily read the emblem on his glove. I was not getting my foreword hand emblem at that point until my club head was in the catchers mitt. I made that change to mimick DJ and I found that my wrists were so easy to hold up to the top of my swing with little if not any cupping or breaking. It felt like the golf club was just gliding up to the top of the vertical 12 o'clock position and helping me to easily transition into the bump. So tip of the hat to Dad and Son for their bonus videos. Lots of good stuff in those videos guys/gals too.

    JG, your taking the time to answer my help note has just erased 37 years on "shoulder - arm" down swing first move, vs. bump initiating the forward Up swing. Gosh, what a difference.

    Have a good weekend..............Regards..................Shayne
  • Dave Rolfe (Australia)
    Thanks for all the freebie tips Don. I have a folder full of your good advice and read certain ones before heading off for the club comp' each weekend.

    I am sure that you don't worry about the "wining few" that post stupid comments and I urge you to continue with the good work. Your thoughts are classical at times and sometimes are a little hard to understand the concept you are trying to teach. in my lifetime, the people who are "guilty" of this are genuine and deeply intent on helping others.
    The very fact that you advertise the blog freely is testament to this principle and nothing is forced down anybody's throat to buy other services. The losers that complain must be children using their parents computer, as no one old enough to make an informed decision would let themselves get embroiled doing something they didn't want to do, would they? Sorry, I forgot we are talking about losers!

    Let me conclude with the statement " I appreciate all that Don does and I "Urge the Surge" to continue doing so!
  • Harry, you are probably standing to close to the ball .....after you hit it !!!!
  • Jim Wile
    To Jim Bourque:

    To stop the pulls, try like heck to finish the swing with your hands by your left ear (if you are a righty). You can't pull it if you do that.
  • Jerry Foley
    For what it's worth I had an impromptu conversation with Don a few weeks ago. I called him and he took the time to return my call. We spoke for an hour. Don was gracious and knowledgeabl. And I believe I can tell when someone is blowing smoke and I will tell you Don is a sincere guy who believes in what he is saying. Consider that I have not purchased Don's program but thoroughly enjoy his writings. I have argued at times but also have learned a great deal. I am going to purchase the PPGS for my best friend who I think could greatly improve his game with this swing. He has tried various swing ideas but my gut says Don's methodology is a perfect fit for my buddy. He needs a simpler way to think his way around the course and to stop "cherry-picking" an idea here and an idea there. The "secret dujour" found in golf rags only serve to confuse and often conflict with the last idea you read in a past issue. Don's approach worked for him personally (check his record as a player), his son DJ (where's Harry on the PGA money list?) and countless bloggers who report success. Don doesn't need me to defend him. When I first began following this blog I was skeptical and chimed in vigorously but Don and Lynn patiently drilled down to more technical layers when pushed and have made their points understandable and well reasoned. Frankly if the occasional Harry didn't pop up periodically I'd be more skeptical.
  • Richard
    Hi Don,

    I've been having trouble with the"in the catchers mitt and up the tree" concept. It seems like it's a 2 step move. Is this clearly described in one of your videos?
    Thanks for the help.

    Richard
  • LC
    Yeah, I agree with the post that "Don is not trying to rip people off."

    I'm a 3 handicap. I'm in Arizona and I practice nearly every day and play on the weekends.

    Anyway, the recent topics have been really good, imo. The one I read yesterday commenting on the over-emphasis of turning the lower body was excellent.

    I'm convinced that some of the people that come here to post their disgust with the system are not earnestly trying to understand what is being said. Heck, I'll admit that the written word is indeed tough to follow at times. Pictures and or video help tremendously,,but that said, a little more attempt to understand is really what needs to happen.

    One more thing,

    "Some people are not happy unless they are UN-happy about something."

    I'm confident that Don can look people right in the eye and tell them he's not trying to rip people off, he is helping. And,,,as a 3 handicap there are enough good tips here to keep me coming back.
    The fact is this, the interpretation of the written word can be varied. As such, when you don't get the results you are looking for,,,try to understand what is meant and come with your own description. Taken literally any teaching "system" from any guru with be flawed. Afterall, someone did say "You can't stand too close to the ball." Perhaps Harry should consider that.
  • jim bourque
    trying to use your principles, hitting the ball quite solidly. I am an 8 handicap. I think this swing will work for me. I like its simplicity. I am, however, hitting some extreme pulls with 5 iron down through wedges. any thoughts?
  • Robert
    John:

    by the way how is Charles Barkley doing these day's, Hank did a great job didn't he, Hate to tell you bud, anther 20 years Hank should be able to help everyone.
  • Robert
    Harry

    You mean to tell us your'e a 3 handicap, you don't need any instruction, you paid for this PPGS so you could get on this blog as a member, to comment like this. Harry it must be terrible to live all alone, no friends no life WOW, hope financially you're secure that you can get out once in a while. For the rest of you Fools that buy extra things like diet programs and training aids WOW. I suppose most of you have purchased swamp land in Florida. All of you guys stop right now and think what your doing here, this swing concept is good and it works, hell there has been enough guys commenting for the past 3 months to realize over 80 percent of the members it's helped. If your having issues deal with them, we don't need to know that kind of crap on this blog, if you want to talk golf great, if you don't then go, the rest of us take this personelly because Don and D.J. are good people, the last thing they want to do is rip people off, they have tried to offer any avenue of help and then you come onto the blog and comment like this.
  • Larry Mullett
    I notice that "John" and "Harry" don't have the balls to print their last names. Typical whiny, "hide behind my computer" and trash people jerks. If they don't like it, don't buy it. If you don't have something good to say, then say nothing. Most likely, they're victims of fat, ugly, domineering wives so they use this avenue to vent their frustrations. Just my $0.02. By the way, I'm not a "star struck idiot", and it ticks me off that Harry ***hole has the nerve to call me one.
  • George
    A couple of things....First, I finally took your advice about getting clubs fitted correctly. I am fortunate enough to have the Taylor Made Performance Lab only a few miles to the south of me. So I splurged and spent 400 bucks on it....It was well worth the money. I now have a new set of Taylor Made Burner irons, and an R9 driver, all custom fitted to me..
    I also was having trouble with the PPGS swing. Never could get it to perform as it was advertised. During the fitting, they showed me my swing and I learned I was quitting on the shot right after I made contact with the ball, in other words, never was getting back up the tree properly. Took this whole thing clubs and swing correction to my favorite course this morning as the weather in Orlando is absolutely perfect for golf. The result is, I would have shot my age if I had waited till next month. I went around the par 72 in 77. Never have done that before. AND I can hit most drives two and a half, if I do it right, even at my age. BTW I would come down to Port St Lucie except my passport is not up to date. Also my wife loves your accent
  • Kelly
    Yes, Harry, everyone in the army is out of step but you. We all know...you're right, we're monkeys. Why do you keep coming and hanging out in our trees? You should spend your time doing things and being in places that you DO find productive, and stop wasting time doing things that you DON'T find productive? Either you must have more time than me, or you just like being miserable.
  • Kelly
    Peter, you wish "sokeone" would proof Don's comments? Really? Now that's funny!
  • Peter
    I wish you would get sokeone to read your tips before you post them and point out the mistakes in language you regularly make, and to try them out and show you why it is often impossible to know what you mean. The latest one is a great example - drawing lines between a knuckle and chin? I don't doubt you have a great idea there, it's just that it needs someone more expert in explanation to put it across.
    Enjoy the fact that you allow critical comments on your site, though. Makes it more real.
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