(Note from the Surge: We were very busy shooting a new putting video yesterday and my on line guy, Paul, put up the wrong article. I know I promised you one from Dr. Armstrong — which it was for awhile. But it was old as the hills and not too accurate. Paul says he’s very sorry. You’re forgiven.
Since we’re still at it, I thought you’d enjoy the following.)
This has been a question talked about and debated for centuries (it seems), on the course, in the locker room, dining room, club bars, and in numerous magazine articles. In or out…in or out…which is the best? Some magazines and pros have done studies to find the answer to this in or out conundrum. Some say in; some say out.
Let’s first look at why you would want it in. Most players agree that when they have a real difficult chip or pitch, likely a real fast downhiller, leaving the flag/pin in the hole may help slow down a shot hit much too hard. Makes sense to me if I want insurance to help a poor to bad shot. I don’t know about you, but I always plan on hitting a good shot. So, with that thought in mind, I always take the pin out. My rationale: MORE ROOM FOR MY BALL TO GO IN THE HOLE!
Let’s look at another reason: Leave it in to see the hole. Again, an excellent reason if you like in. I like out, so if I am having trouble seeing the hole, I get someone to tend it, so they can jerk that sucker out of the hole to MAKE MORE ROOM FOR MY BALL TO GO IN THE HOLE!
Many times when playing, I have seen a player leave the pin in, hit it and the pin knocks the ball out on a pretty good to really good shot with good speed, at the hole. Many times I have heard a comment like, “I should have taken it out!” That is followed by some self awareness phrase like, “You idiot!”
The new pins courses have now are real hot and spring the ball off. I can honestly admit that I would say some pins are hotter than others. Unfortunately, I have never been able to identify exactly which metal or compound is the softer one, so I always take the pin out to MAKE MORE ROOM FOR MY BALL IN THE HOLE!
As long as I can remember in all my years of playing, the pins have always been made of metal. Some made with wood still have a metal rod from around a foot above the hole to the plug that fits into the bottom of the cup to hold the pin in place. Any way you look at it, I figure if the pin is in, there is a high probability it can knock a good shot out. In fact, I if I kept count of all the GOOD SHOTS I witnessed that hit the pin and got knocked out versus knocked in, I would bet all my championship trophies that the knockouts were more than 4 to 1 for knocked in.
So, if you believe my stats and opinion, and think back on your playing experiences of the pin helping or hindering a good shot, I’ll bet you will come up with a ratio close to mine.
With that said I’ll close with this thought. My “SURGISM” for the pin in/out dilemma, since I always plan on hitting a good shot, no matter how difficult it is, I always take the pin out…ALWAYS!!! The Surge Says, “IF THE PIN IS IN……IT’S IN THE WAY!
The Surge!
Tell me what you're thinking... and what part of the golf swing, or this great game... you'd like to know more about. If you want your pic to show with your comment, go get a 
I believe I remember the students at MIT did a research on the “pin in or out”. The conclusion was to leave it IN as I recall. ‘Course that was years ago but I still leave it in, unless it is a large wooden pole.
Ciao!! Dr. Frank
Not so according to Dave Pelz. “Whenever the rules allow Leave It In!!!!” And supposedly he has done studies to prove it.
Surge,
I have to agree based on my own experiences that taking the pin out is best around the green.
They showed three shots bounce off the pin and not go in in yesterdays round on the European tour. Cool to hear you are working on a putting video. Will it involve some thoughts from Scotty Cameron who you mentioned DJ is currently working with? We’ll look forward to more help around the green for sure!
Down the middle, Robert
I know at my course the pins are made of fiberglass and you definitely want the pin out!
I see more and more clubs using fiberglass over metal – strong and holds up for many years.
Hello Don, I think a lot like you. I can’t seem to understand, Why anyone would allow the flag to remain in the hole while chipping or putting.
Kudos to Larry Vroom: I agree fully with you.
Dave Pelz did some scientific studies with balls rolled on the green to the hole with the pin and the pin out and showed that in almost all cases with the pin in effectively made the hole larger. In the only case where the pin was leaning so far forward that it left no room for the ball to go in (such as high wind conditions) it was more beneficial to leave the pin in. If you thought that leaving the pin in would cause the ball to bounce off out of the hole, you’re right that this could happen. But in that case the putt was hit way too fast anyway and the ball would have bounced over the hole. So, when putting and chipping from off the green leave the pin in all cases except when it leans too far forward. The study is described in his book “Dave Pelz’s Short Game Bible”.
Don,
Last week I posted a note about the suggestion of drinking 10 bottles of water to loose weight, and said I have lost over 30 lbs. using Nuvo Gene Tea and I have heard many people have been looking for the tea. I would like provide an address to find it if you don’t mind? nevada.igetpaidtodrinkcoffee.com. Even though I am not playing golf right now, Having shoulder surgery Monday and at age 65 I am planning on playing in 4 months,(the Dr. says 6 to 9) but I have been using your swing method and agree it works very well. I am an 9 handicap and I could even play after I fell on ice and torm my rotator cuff muscles (3 out of 4, 1 completely). Thanks for the best swing in golf. People can contact me at ken4golf@gmail.com
Don
I suppose the reason most of us dont pull the pin on a typical chip or pitch shot could be because of the logistics, I normally play with other golfers who are near my 15 handicap range and we are all normally off of the green and some of us may not be real close to the pin which means that they need it in to see where they are trying to aim and to have someone go over and tend the flag on a majority of holes would be very time consuming and would not make the course marshall very happy.
With you being a much better golfer, I can only surmise that you probably normally play with good players and with all of you nearer the pin on a majority of holes, its not as time consuming and therefore its not that big of a deal.
However, your line of thinking makes sense to me and I will try and use it whenever I can from now on without backing up the whole golf course.
I also wanted to say that I try and have someone tend the pin on long putts per Jack Nicklaus who says that having a person standing next to the pin on a long putt helps us with depth perception and I have found that to work well for me most of the time and since everyone would be on the green by this time, it does not require any extra time.
Happy Golfing
Ken
Don….Would the side saddle stroke be the Perfect Putting stroke since it’s like a ferris wheel
and according to Dr. Cochran defination of a good shoot you just have to do 4 things
which you stated in your video. I would like to know your thought’s and do you agree or not
Thanks Robert
When just off the green, quite a distance to the pin, what is you preference? Using a putter or 6/7 iron.
Thank you,
Robert
Hi Don, my struggle with the golf swing is with my mid irons off the fairway. I’m self taught and my swing is 3/4 , firm wrist , straight back , with a upright finish (much like you teach). I have a few major flaws though , one of which was a pretty big sway back and forth. To try and correct this I followed modern teaching changing to a more rotational flat swing to replace my sway , but still I wound up hitting more and more fat shots . I would always revert back to my old swing and play the ball well forward to keep from taking big divots. When I try and follow your method I think I’m hitting the ball much cleaner (I can only practice inside right now) , but sometimes it feels a bit too chunky. What are the keys in your swing to get rid of these monkeys once and for all?
I like what Chi Chi said. “I’ve never seen a hole in one with the pin in.”
My rule of thmb is Out for up hill and In for down hill. I was once robbed of a hole-in-one on an uphill that hit the pin and rolled back down the slope.
Oops.I mean he said. “I’ve never seen a hole in one with the pin OUT!”
To Robert S.
I am not sure what a side saddle putting stroke is but I do use a method that could be described as a ferris wheel stroke and it works very well, I think it is much like the one Tom Watson uses.
I bring the putter off the ground quickly and straight away from the ball but I only use my arms and shoulders to do this (I do not pick up the club with my hands, my hands are very quiet) and I keep my head still but allow my torso to turn as the putter strikes the ball and allow it to keep turning into the finish, this works very well in keeping the putter square to the line. I like to keep the putter off the ground and strike the center of the ball with the center of the putter and on short slick downhill putts, I find it helpful to strike the ball above the equator as is seems to put a true roll on the ball and keeps it tracking on line very well.
In Summary, Since we are all different, I think it is important to find out what will work best for us individually, I have played with golfers who use unorthodox putting strokes that seem really strange but it works well for them because they have confidence in what they are doing.
Happy Golfing
Ken
When chipping I usually leave the pin in since I am not as confident with controlling the speed. When putting from off the green I pull the pin. I have more confidence about being able to control the speed. Obviously, if I can improve my chipping and speed, I would probably pull it. My experience, for the most part, when the speed is too fast and I hit the pin, it saves me distance. If the speed is right it normally does not matter, unless of course, as mentioned above, the pin is leaning towards you or moving from the wind.
Don
I need to get off topic here and ask you a question concerning a comment from your photos the other day in which a member commented that your shoulders appeared to be 90 degrees and was later corrected by another member, this caused me to take a look at my shoulder turn and I realize that I have not been turning them even 70 degrees, I guess I didnt see the need to worry about it since I have been striking the ball relatively well off the tee although my iron shots could use a lillte more spunk. My question is “Am I losing power by not making a full 70 degree shoulder turn?”
I didnt think it mattered that much since the arms are the power source in PPGS. I must admit now that I am paying attention to it, it seems that a 70 degree shoulder turn feels much like the 90 degree turn I used to make (At least I thought I was making a 90 degree turn, my teacher at the time said that shoulder turn was good).
Happy Golfing
Ken
If leaving it out is best should I on a par 3 hole get my caddy to run up and get the pin out before I hit my shot? In other words will my chances for an ace increase? Is it legal?
I so want to learn you PPGS style, how do I learn it inside as opposed to outside as it is Winter here. Susan
Don, My friend Steve Cohen, (founder of Shivas Irons Society) has a son Michael who is now a New York based consultant with McKinsely and Company. Michael did a study for a paper he wrote during graduate school about this very issue “in or out?” His testing proved exactly what you suggest. Out is best! Thanks for all of your good work.
M
Don
My thoughts on the flagstick are simple, if you want birdie take it out if you are happy with par leave it in. This is for chips and putts only
Bill
Well Susan, I would suggest you find the shortest club in your bag and then get in a spot in a room where there are no breakable things around and then give it a go!
Happy Golfing
Ken
Don,
I saw Dr. Armstrong’s tips on how to use ten minutes before tee time last night, but this morning, they were gone. I thought they were extremely valuable. Can you put them back? Even for a few days? I wanted to reread them this morning on my way to the club, but they had been removed. i thought for a moment that the Chinese had hacked my email and stolen my favorite tip.
Thanks for all your great information on the game we all love.
Barry
HI DON! Thanks for todays column on In or Out! I think what you say makes sense! I have put your “ism” in MY “ism” book! I did however expect some info on what to do in those critical 10 mins before tee off when you are running late! Will you please share you thoughts about what you advise to make the most use of those precious 10 mins. Dave
Dear Don
I have to side with Dave Pelz and some of the other commentors here. The study done by Mr Pelz seems to be more convincing than anicdotal observations on the course. You only have to ask Robert Allenby who lost a PGA tournament a couple of weeks back to a chip shot which hit the pin and stopped a tap-in distance away (by his opponent) which would have finished much further away otherwise.
I personally like the pin in for another reason explained in your article – I find it much easier to get a line when the flag is in and there isn’t often the opportunity of getting the pin held as everyone else is concerned with their own game and not slowing play unnecessarily – I would also assume if the ball hit the flag and bounced off it was going too fast to go in anyhow, and would normally rest nearer to the hole for the putt back.
Chris
am enjoying all your valuable tips
To Chris Warne,
It was at the Sony a couple of weeks back that the situation you refer to took place. Ryan Palmer was chipping from about 20 -25 feet. Nomally from that distance I know of no one who would have the pin removed or even tended. Palmer really nailed the chip which would have rolled quite far away judging from the force in which it hit the pin. Of course that is not to say that he would not of hit the putt coming back, but the odds certainly would have been greater not to in contrast to were it had settled after hitting the pin. I think though that the discussion here is removing the flag when the shot is just off the green, or on the green but rather far away. I think that what the Palmer/Allenby situation on the final hole of the Sony highlights is that along with skill you also need to have a little bit of luck on your side as well!
The email about the “10 minute warm up” IS “Pin In or Pin Out” ?????????
yes palmer would of had at least a 8ft. putt, i usually take the pin out not unless its a severe down hillchip
Don,
While most folks are concerned with physically taking the pin in or out, I think the most valuable lesson here is the MENTAL ATTITUDE of “MORE ROOM FOR MY BALL TO GO IN THE HOLE!”. This puts you in the proper mindset to make a good shot, and puts the correct distance in your head before the swing. Much better than “planning” on a shot where the ball will either bounce off the pole or likely roll over it. From a physics point of view I agree with giving the ball more room, BTW.
As an aside, when I play golf by myself (pretty often lately in the cold) I always leave the pin in out of laziness. The hole LOOKS smaller. When I take it out, I am even more confident because of the larger apparent size.
Thanks for the tips,
Jon
Surge,
This question is off the subject.I just picked up a Taylor made r7 CGB max limited, got a great deal ,but I want to know about the adjustmants and how to use them.
If you putt the ball on the green and it hits the pin then it is a two shot penalty. In the interest of speeding up the game, i.e. a quick tap in if you are close to the hole, I would prefer this penalty to be dropped and give the choice of whether to leave the pin in or out to the player.
Regards, Craig S
I remember reading a study a few years ago where the tester used an apparatus to roll a golf ball at a specified speed they they could control. On a flat green with the ball aimed dead center, they rolled balls at various speeds. In their test, once they reached a speed where the ball bounced off the pin and did not go in, the ball didn’t go in without the pin either. So at the same speed, the pin, in their test, never kept a ball out that would have dropped without the pin. They concluded that you should always leave the pin in just in case you hit it too hot.
The one thing they did not mention was what type of pin they tested. Our course used to have fiberglass pins which seemed to absorb a lot of shock and allowed balls to drop in the hole. Now we have metal pins which seem to really launch the ball when hit. I’ve seen some pretty slow rolling balls bounce off our new pins.
The last thought is that in golf, confidence can play a major role toward success. So I feel there is merit to the old adage of pulling the pin to make the shot. I pull the pin for anything from the fringe, mainly because of our lively pins.
To Jimsha,
When the ball is on the green, the concept of the pin being in or out is not a choice, other than
to have it tended. When the ball is on the green, the ball cannot hit the pin or it will be a 2 stroke penalty. The situation discussed here is about whether the pin being in provides an advantage in assisting the ball to go into the hole by the ball striking the pin. Thus, the shot and the position of the ball has to be from off of the green.
One overlooked point about the pin being in which I have heard no one mention: many shots that do not have any conceivable chance of going into the hole because of bounces & primarily because of ball speed, do go in because the pin was in and it stopped the ball and made the ball drop into the hole. Anyone, and every one of us, who have played a few or more rounds of golf can attest to, and have witnessed, the shots that went into the hole because the pin stopped the ball & made it drop in! And there are many of us that have seen many of those shots that have no chance go in because of the pin!!!!
When I try to bring up the Doctor’s report on 10 minute warm up. Pin in or pin out keeps coming up instead.
Check out Dave Pelz’s reasearch, that indicates keeping the pin in on chipps, at: http://www.golf.com/golf/instruction/article/0,28136,1565294,00.html